ITLAPD and a poll about non-con

[emmagrant01]

They're even doing pirate talk on Regis & Kelly. The world feels like a very small place today.

On another topic entirely: I posted a fic the other day that had a non-con warning on it, and the response to it was pretty interesting. A lot of people commented that they had been hesitant to read it because of that warning, but for whatever reason read it anyway. So I was flattered, of course, but also intrigued. I almost didn't label it as non-con, because I wasn't sure it technically qualified. I decided to add that label for the heck of it, and didn't really think that a significant number of people would avoid reading it as a result.

[Poll #824833]

How would you define non-con? Is there really such a thing as "mild" non-con, or do you categorize it all in the same way?

Comments

[best-of-five.livejournal.com]

i'll probably be mildly to moderately upset.

but your poll raises a good question - i don't mind reading bond/spell/forced relationship fics but non-con squicks the hell outta me. i have no idea why...

[florahart]

Heh. For number 2:

I often click. It depends on the author, whether I'm in the mood for non-con, and the pairing. And whether I am clear on degree. Because yes, I think there are degrees of non-versus-dubious consent.

[severusslave-76.livejournal.com]

For me, non-con is non-con - I equate "mild" non-con as equal to being "sort of" preggers. It either is, or it isn't.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Ah, interesting. So for you, a fic in which one of the characters attempted to rape another but wasn't successful would be in the same category as one that featured a violent, brutal rape?

[piratesmile331.livejournal.com]

In reference to question #3, it wouldn't bother me, because I kinda enjoy non-con (depending who writes it). But it all depends on what squicks you, I suppose. I mean, if there was a character death in a fic, and there had been no warning, that would bother me, because I avoid character death fics.

[damned-queen.livejournal.com]

I enjoy reading non-con most of the time, but it really depends on the pairing. For instance, I really like Lucius/Harry as a pairing so you don't expect to find anything but non-con if you start reading a story featuring that pairing (it'd be quite disturbing if they managed to write something that wouldn't qualify as non-con). However, when I read H/D I usually skip the non-con stories because I personally think it doesn't quite fit with the pairing... I know that doesn't make much sense but that's the way I feel it.

[shanna-souzou.livejournal.com]

I really agree with that last sentence. Outside of this fandom, I don't really have a problem with non-con and even enjoy it when in the mood for it.

It just doesn't work for me when it comes to the H/D pairing. The "love from hate" aspect of this pairing is what drew me in and its a great chance to read something romantic that has a sharp edge to it. Dubious non-con can kinda work for them, especially when there's a conflict of feelings to back it up, but straight-up rape doesn't do it for me. But then again, neither do one-time H/D smut fics.

[asinful.livejournal.com]

As a general rule I do tend to avoid non-con. However to reply to the last question in your poll, if there’s non-con in a fic I’m reading and it was not warned for, I would most likely be fine with it as long as I am enjoying the fic overall. I can often overlook certain things that do squick me otherwise if I like a particular fic.

How a person defines non-con is a very good question. It all depends on how a particular person perceives a situation. I guess for me it is considered non-con if there’s coercion, threats or fear involved, or if the person does not fully understand the nature of the act.

[libby-drew.livejournal.com]

I think you'll probably find as wide a range of opinion on the meaning of "non-con" as you might on, say, AU. It means different things to different people, which is no doubt directly related to why they may or may not read it.

To expand on my answer on question 2 - Some authors have, over time, earned my readership. I will try just about anything they put out there, simply because they consistently provide a quality, entertaining read. I trust them. So, for example, a story with a character death - something I truly hate - would be passed over unless I recognize the author as someone I trust.

[karaz.livejournal.com]

I don't mind dub-con, sometimes even enjoy it. Depending on the author and the pairing - non-con works occasionally. However, it's not a kink of mine. I really don't enjoy the violence that usually accompanies non-con and when it has nothing to do with a larger plot I'm definitely going to avoid it.

[tamerterra.livejournal.com]

Agreed - I often like dub-con, but non-con tends to squick me.

There's a particualar pairing in my fandom that seems to give itself readily into the dub & non con genres, and I won't read it if it's non. And there's another pairing that is squicky in a delicious sort of way when it's non-con. Hm.

[titti]

For number 3, I wouldn't get upset, because I've got more important things over which to get upset, but I'd stop reading, and it would be unlikely that I read anything by that person again.

Also to me there so no such thing as mild non-con, dubious consent. You either give consent or you don't, no in betweens.

[nimori.livejournal.com]

Also to me there so no such thing as mild non-con, dubious consent. You either give consent or you don't, no in betweens.

Legally, sure. But the purpose of warnings has nothing to do with law -- they exist in order to guide the reader into chosing or avoiding a fic. Dub-con tells me that a) it's probably not going to be violent and b) the victim is in some state of conflict -- which doesn't excuse the rapist, but does set up a mental state for the victim that I'm more apt to identify with. In other words, it's probably something I want to read. I'm more cautious with generic rape warnings. I got brave last night and clicked on a rape fic in a new fandom where I don't now any authors and got a weepy!victim (an FBI agent no less) fic, which I hate.

I tend to think of non-con as a general category, with dub-con and ambiguous consent being sub-categories. Of course it's all technically rape. It's all technically 'fanfic' too, but that doesn't mean the terms 'romance' and 'angst' aren't useful in narrowing down what I want to read. I vastly prefer emotional or mental force over physical when reading a non-con fic, and I'm quite happy to see the category broken down into specifics. For the people who don't read non-con, those distinctions are apt to be meaningless, but if the reader likes one type and not another, it becomes much more important to advertise what sort of feel the non-con will have -- just like some readers want to know whether to expect darkfic or parody.

[http://users.livejournal.com/reciprocity_/]

Non-con tends to go hand in hand with angst, it has that sort of quality. Reading severe angst, particularily if it doesn't resolve itself, just makes me feel really physically sick. I imagine non con would have similar effects. Theres only a few situations I could really imagine enjoying it in fic, like those sudden unwanted bond fics etc, but for the most part it doesn't settle well with me.

I think in order to read it, someone would have to explain the plot of the fic and the nature of the story, so I'd know what I was getting into - having it be a surprise would jsut make it worse. For example - I didn't read the fic you posted ( no offence!) because of the warning...

LOL I'm weird i guess - to get sick from fic - but it just sort of happens.

[ravenna-c-tan.livejournal.com]

There are definitely varying degrees of severity in non-con, but they should probably all be warned for just because people are so touchy about it. I'm one of those who clicks immediately as I enjoy a good story with pain, fear, and coercion (though I would say that coercion implies dubious consent).

[kerryblaze.livejournal.com]

Non-con, for me, depends on the pairing. I would never read a Harry/Ron if it had a non-con warning. But I might read say, Draco/Snape if it did.

[silver-osiris.livejournal.com]

Non-con is a big kink of mine.
But I will admit that the pairings and the author has some effect on whether or not I'll read it. For example: I love a good H/D non-con (regardless of who's dominant), but only if it's well written. I realize that the whole non-con concept has the likelihood of being OOC on some level (at least w/ the "good guys"), but there's a difference for me between a lil' OOC and OMGWTFBBQ! OOC.

[aldebaran1977.livejournal.com]

I don`t think that non con sex between Harry and Draco with harry in the dominant position is any more OOC than those boys saying "I love you" in every second sentence!

[pallojaketju.livejournal.com]

It really depends on the author and the pairing. For instance, as soon as I saw your new fic and H/D as the pairing I started reading. Didn't pay any attention to the warnings xD

[aldebaran1977.livejournal.com]

I`d define mild non-con as either only an attempted non-con sexual act or talking about it as an event in the past which is not written explicitly or as a very short episode in a very long story.

As i´m only reading H/D it was difficult to decide on Question No. 2. I´d never read it, if it is featuring a different pairing because I generally don`t read stories with other main pairings. And it does not solely depend on the author. But an author that is known to me for writing quality fics might sell me a story with a lot of warnings that I usually avoid. But non-con is not a squick of mine nor a special kink. As the only warning it would not make me avoid the story. There have to follow more detering warnings or an off putting summary.

But I have to admit that I might not have read your story, if it had been written by anybody else...

[lauramcewan.livejournal.com]

If you read a fic containing mild non-con and no warning, how would you react?

Well.....if I come across it in a pro-novel, I just accept it's part of the story. They sure as heck don't put the warning on the book jacket unless it's really a factor of the entire book. In a fic, I'll generally do the same thing, BUT! I like having warnings so I know what to look for. :D

[allysonsedai.livejournal.com]

I know the fic you're referring to and I didn't read it because it said non-con. I'm just not too big on that as a general rule, but I will read it on occasion. However, the main reason I avoid it is that non-con signals 'dark & angsty' to me, and that's a bigger turn off than the actual non-con.

That being said, if I read an unlabeled fic that happened to have non-con in it I would either have 1)quit reading already because of other elements or 2)wouldn't care because if I had gotten that far I must be enjoying it. :)

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I tend to differentiate non-con ratings because the term can raise completely different definitions and gut-reactions in different people. To me, non-con is different from dubious consent (where the person consents but has doubts, or is not of an age or state of mind to properly consent) is different from coercion (where the person protests but is manipulated into giving consent) is different from rape (outright violence, not a rape fantasy, no eroticization.) In one story I wrote, in which there was a twist that revealed the character was not just enjoying a drunken fantasy but had actually assaulted someone, I warned simply for "disturbing themes," which I figured would keep away those sensitive to darker fics without giving away the ending.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

See, that's the sort of non-uniformity among these definitions that does exist, and it isn't because you think non-con is "sort of" rape or anything for which you should be jumped-upon, which does happen. Yes, I use non-con to mean rape, but that's because I thought it functioned as a fandom euphemism for the word rape when I was introduced to the term. But one might just as easily conclude differently, thinking it serves to describe a technical event of rape but one which involves coercion instead of violence, or any one of the other degrees you've outlined above. I keep seeing the issue lead to fights! ^_^

[helens78]

I'm one of the people who answered "something else" for #3. My reaction would depend on context. Does the scene work perfectly within the story? Does it feel out of place at all? Are the characters behaving the way I see them in the canon we're all coming from? If all those work, then I'm reading it for the story, and I shouldn't have an OMGWTF reaction to seeing non-con with no warning.

There's also the question of the purpose. If it's purely a dominant-power act and it's not intented to show sexual gratification for both parties, I'm going to be a lot more bothered and squicked by it than I would be otherwise.

My favorite brand of non-con is semi-con or dubious con., either of which involve a "victim" who is somehow wanting and enjoying the act. There's a million different ways that can go, but the idea that intrigues me most these days is a charater who "tricks" someone into raping him/her, when in reality that's their biggest fantasy. So it's consensual from their end and consensual in the audience's eyes, but as far as the rapist is concerned, it's rape. I think that's a really interesting possibility.

[fiona-fawkes.livejournal.com]

I think of "mild" non-con as dubious consent. And to me, this means anything that could easily be argued as to whether or not it is truly non-con. If a fic has a dubious consent warning, I may go ahead and read it, if it's by an author that I trust or the summary has me intrigued. As for straight up non-con, in the real world, it's called rape, and I refuse to read about it for sexual enjoyment.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

What if it's not written for sexual enjoyment, though? What if a rape scene is not depicted as something intended to be erotic, but is part of the plot?

[cleverthylacine]

What the heck is mild non-con?

I gotta ask. Non-con is an absolute squick of mine; dubious consent is a bulletproof kink. But in dubious consent, at least in my head, the victim really wants this to happen, even if they don't know/can't admit it, and the aggressor may not know that consciously but is aware of it on some level. Non-con is a situation in which there is no consent and one person is having their good time totally at the expense of their partner.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

If it's a writer and a pairing I like, I'm there in a nanosecond. Otherwise, I will probably give it a pass. Non-con is a huge kink for me, but I'm getting picky about whose stuff I will read.

[canellaphile.livejournal.com]

I've read some non-con at comms like wizard_trauma that are very good. But if it's a kinky fic, non-con is just not my cup o' grog. (heh, a little TLAPD humor). I define non-con as anything where it just doesn't feel like clear consent has been made in any way. I've seen warnings like "dubious non-con" or "vaguely non-con" and I actually do enjoy reading those! About 50% of the time, the dubious non-con fics are well-written and illuminating, y'know? But sometimes they're just badly-written kink, and the grey zone is not believable.

[slayra.livejournal.com]

Non-con doesn't really bother me, most of the times, because it's not really non-con. Firstly it's just a story. Secondly it is normally written by a person who never experienced... non-con. So it might have some violence, but it's still writen to be... sexy and sex not rape. I avoid reading non-con fiction written by an author who did experience that situation. Of course, those authors normally write original stories, but you get the general idea... non-con that seems a bit irreal (but can be recognized as such), is ok to me.

Also, I think there are different types of non-con, depending on how realistic you want it to seem. I'd not call it 'mild' or not 'mild' as all the stories involve violence, forced sex, etc, etc. Most authors, either consciously or not describe non-con situations as it being a situation where the victim doesn't want to be, but at the same time is enjoying, in a twisted way. There are, of course, stories that are all about the violence and dark thoughts and depression and such. These tend to be more realistic but still, mostly written by people who never experienced it, so it never gives me a feeling of disgust. It's just forceful sex and it doesn't squick me because it's not the real thing.

Anyways, these are my views on non-con. :p ^____^;;

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

re: the last question: it would all depend on the circumstances. for example, if it happened between minor characters of the story, or if it happened because one of the characters was drugged/forced in some other way, and if it wasn't described in a graphic way, then i wouldn't be that upset. but i'd still want a warning for it.

i didn't read your most recent story because of the non-con warning, especially because the summary suggested the non-con/violence would happen between harry and draco.

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Read it! I don't want to spoil it for you, but I think it will make you happy. Not your typical non-con, hint hint.