A bit more on epithets

[emmagrant01]

As many people have pointed out on painless_j's post on this topic, a well-placed epithet can be used to convey important information about a character. The problem occurs when people do it simply to avoid repeating characters' names or "he" and "his" over and over. The resulting text is cumbersome at best and approaching ridiculous at worst. IMO, this is one of those little things about writing that one learns along the way, just as one grows out of the Mary Sue phase, learns how to use a colon and a semi-colon properly, to show rather than tell, to resist the urge to overuse adverbs, et cetera.

As a disclaimer, I recognize that I have a lot to learn as a writer myself, and I'm not suggesting that I am a great writer who has none of these (or other) problems. I'm still hashing a lot of this out myself, and this is merely my opinion.

I thought it would be fun to use an example to illustrate the point, so here's an excerpt from anise_anise's gorgeous Open Surrender (used without her permission, but I'm hoping she doesn't mind!):



++

He lifted his head and watched breathlessly as Draco licked his hips, his navel, snuffling against his pubic hair, breathing him in deeply. Draco shifted and settled between his thighs, lifting them each carefully off of the bed and placing them over his shoulders. Harry held his breath as Draco lowered his head, his pink tongue peeking out to lap softly at the base of his tortured cock.

"Fuck," Harry whimpered; his neck strained from holding his head up to watch.

Draco winked at him cheekily and moved down further, licking his balls over and over. He writhed as Draco mouthed his sac, moist lips dancing over the wrinkled flesh. The tongue licked lower still, right behind his balls, slicking across his perineum again and again, boldly sliding over his crevice. Draco's dexterous fingers slipped against his arse cheeks, pushing them gently apart, and Harry felt him shift even lower, hot, damp, breath brushing against his hole. He couldn't be... He wouldn't. It wasn't done.

++


Not an epithet in sight, and it's not one bit confusing who is doing what to whom. In good writing, certain words just sink out of your sight and become part of the background. Your eyes slide over repeated names and and you focus on what's happening in the scene. Notice that Anise is very good at structuring the text so that it's clear who each "he" and "his" refers to. Some writers will say they are fond of using epithets to keep all the he's from getting confusing, but my argument is that if it's confusing, then it's a writing issue, not a pronoun issue. Good writers make that work all the time, as evidenced above. Just like with many things in life, it can be helpful for developing writers (and I consider myself one as well) to read a lot of good writing with an eye toward what makes it good.

Now, consider the same passage, but with some of those names and he's replaced with common epithets:


++

The dark-haired boy lifted his head and watched breathlessly as the blond licked his hips, his navel, snuffling against his pubic hair, breathing him in deeply. The Slytherin seeker shifted and settled between the Gryffindor's thighs, lifting them each carefully off of the bed and placing them over his shoulders. He Boy-Who-Lived held his breath as his childhood nemesis lowered his head, his pink tongue peeking out to lap softly at the base of his tortured cock.

"Fuck," Harry whimpered; his neck strained from holding his head up to watch.

Draco winked at him cheekily and moved down further, licking his balls over and over. The green-eyed boy writhed as the slighter boy mouthed his sac, moist lips dancing over the wrinkled flesh. The tongue licked lower still, right behind his balls, slicking across his perineum again and again, boldly sliding over his crevice. The blond seeker's dexterous fingers slipped against the raven-haired boy's arse cheeks, pushing them gently apart, and Harry felt him shift even lower, hot, damp, breath brushing against his hole. He couldn't be... He wouldn't. It wasn't done.

++


*shudders* My apologies for making you read that.

But see how the epithets ruin the flow of the narrative? Your mind stops to process each one, because in good writing, every word is important, so you can't just pass over this sort of description. But the information in "the blond seeker" is not important. We already know this is a fic about Harry and Draco, so we don't need to be reminded about what they look like or do for fun right now. It isn't telling us anything we need to know in this situation, so it's actually distracting us from what's important in the scene. Even if this were a story with original characters whom we don't know well, this would still not be the best way to convey such information.


And that's my two cents. Or maybe a nickel, heh. I'm so tempted to challenge people to write the worst possible epithet-filled drabbles and post them here, just for fun. :-P

ETA: *spews coffee* Y'all crack me up! :-D

Related links, or It isn't just me -- other people who know a lot about writing share my opinion:
Banishing the Wild Epithet (great essay!)
Turkey City Lexicon (scroll down to "Burly Detective Syndrome")

Comments

[clara-posts.livejournal.com]

The thing about all this though, is that writing is a hobby, most people are still learning and sometimes the tone of these criticisms is very negative and, thus, not very nurturing. We've all comitted crimes against fanfic and we all improve all the time (hopefully). I'd rather there was a more encouraging ethos in fandom sometimes.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

There's such a culture in fandom of avoiding talking about writing one-on-one, and I do wish it were different. I have my own opinions, and rather than go to any particular writer and point out what I think they could do better, I usually hit the back button, because reading is also a hobby, and there's no reason to waste time reading fic I don't enjoy. (Not to mention the fact that unsolicited criticism is usually not welcomed, by just about anyone.) But every now and then, a discussion starts up in fandom to address some of the very issues I think are important, so I will throw in my two cents when I've got them. I've learned a lot from reading about others' opinions of writing, and I still do, all the time. :-)

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

Oh. Wow. Yes. YES.

I'm sorry, what was the point again?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Anise's smut can be very distracting, can't it? ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think that's a different situation. But I'm guessing you still wouldn't use eight variations on "the lithe blond Slytherin seeker". ;-)

[abbycadabra.livejournal.com]

I'm so tempted to challenge people to write the worst possible epithet-filled drabbles and post them here, just for fun.

BWAHAHAHA!

...
The soaking wet Gryffindor grinned predatorily as he ran his soft and gentle fingertips softly and gently over the blonde Slytherin's quivering rock hard six-pack. (a/n: did you see what i did there, the juxistopistion of the soft and gentle and the rock hard?) The boy with raven tresses then moved his worshipping hands lower and lower, until with slow and meaningful motions undid the silver eyed boy's pants and unleashed the Slytherin's sweet serpent of sex. (a/n: oh yeah, alliteration!)

"FUCK ME NOW!" the second best of the best seekers ever cried out into the black night, until the very best of the seekers swallowed the words with his own mouth.

The emerald eyed Hogwarts student kissed his rich and affluent lover passionately as he slowly slickly entered the blonde's chamber of man love. The Boy Who Lived thust passionately with all the love he felt for his Slytherin partner until both could no longer stand the friction building in they're groins, and they both came suddenly, gazing into each other's eyes, emerald colliding with silver in a beautiful fireworks explosion of jewelry-tones.

"I love you so much," the brunette said to the blonde love of his life.


I really don't even know if that makes sense.

[mereol.livejournal.com]

the second best of the best seekers -- *snicker*

Yes, I argued they have a place, but here: how's this for bad?

[florahart]

The slender blond one-time Seeker slipped one foot out of bed and toward the floor. As the tarsal appendage neared the lower physical boundary of the room, the red-haired, freckled dragon-keeper reached for him with one burly arm. The older, more liberally burn-scarred man wrapped his muscular wrist around the no longer wealthy Slytherin's waist, dragging him back into the warmth of the bed's center and rolling him for a kiss. The lesser-scarred man didn't fight against the one with the strong fingers; rather, the pale chested one arched up against the digits and reached for sensitive areas of the green-eyed second son's impressive anatomy. The man with the big cock groaned and pulled the eager teenager closer, whispering remarkably vivid words in the snob's ear, explaining what he intended to do to make the silver-eyed boy whimper.

It worked. He whimpered. And the green-eyed burn-scarred red-haired second-born strong-armed warm-bedded dragon keeper smiled.

Re: Yes, I argued they have a place, but here: how's this for bad?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

God, that's brilliant! *grins*

Tarsal appendage... *snicker*

[mereol.livejournal.com]

God I love that story.

Oh yeah, and I agree with you and painless_j, but more importantly, I love that story - *scampers*.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's an H/D classic! :-D

[j-folked.livejournal.com]

This is a delicate issue in the sense that a lot of people in fandoms like to be praised for their works but not be criticized. For me they both come hand in hand. You can't expect to get your work out here and not receive concrit, even mean critics.

On the other hand, I personally thank these kind of posts. I write for a living and I write as a hobby. It is vital for me to know what I'm doing wrong. I find it extremely helpful to have pinpointed common mistakes because the thing is we've been taught that way and it's part of our mental process which doesn't allow us to see what we are doing until someone else tell us, hey wake up and look at this. It's the same reason why we need beta readers. We can read the same mistake a thousand time and will never pick up on it because our mind reads it as being okay.

Being a Spanish speaker makes it even worse for me because one of the main differences between a romance language and a saxon one is the use of poetic imaginary and adverbs and adjectives in each language. As is completely grammar and sentence structure weren't enough. And now I've rambled for so long.

Bottom line, I appreciate everything that help me be a better writer.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I can't even begin to imagine the complexities of writing in another language, so I'm impressed!

As a writer who has learned quite a lot in the last few years, I know how hard it can be to hear criticism of something you do, whether it's directed at you or not. It's difficult not to just dismiss the critique as someone else's uninformed opinion. But every now and then, someone would offer a very reasonable argument about why something ought to be done or not done, and those helped me very much. I'm still learning, of course, but I like to think I have some advice to offer as well, learned the hard way from the many mistakes I've made in the past. :-)

[samena.livejournal.com]

I definitely see what you mean. I have come across this same discussion several times over the years, and most people agree that too many epithets are definitely a bad thing. I just read a story that was filled to the brim with them, and while I liked the story so much that I tried not to be too annoyed, it was simply too much at times. :)

Just out of curiosity: you show two extremes: no epithets whatsoever and far too many epithets - but isn't there a sort of 'road in between'? I mean, aren't there ways in which epithets can be used? Like, when it has a specific function? For example: 'Harry looked at his boyfriend and smiled'? This could be used to specify how Harry looks at Draco. Or are epithets simply not Done, period? :D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You make a good point -- just because something is bad in excess doesn't mean it should never, ever be done. The use of adverbs is a good example, IMO. Most writing experts agree that they should be used sparingly, for emphasis, sort of like exclamation points in text. If every! Thing! You say! Looks like this! It's annoying! To read!!! But used sparingly and for a very specific reason, adverbs, like exclamation points, can be very effective.

I think the same is true of epithets. If the reason for inserting one is to underline something really important in the scene, that's completely different from the situation I'm describing above. In your example, Harry looked at his boyfriend and smiled, you're assuming the reader knows this boyfriend is Draco and you are emphasizing their relationship by choosing to refer to Draco that way. In the context of a story, that could be a very effective thing to do. Of course, if the following sentence was "The blond smiled back", the effect would be ruined, because the writer has just equated "boyfriend" with "blond".

I guess what it comes down to for me is that in good writing, every word or phrase is chosen deliberately to create a particular kind of feeling or to convey something about the story. When lots of extraneous info is inserted for no apparent reason, it's sloppy and muddles the impact of the writing and the clarity of the story itself.

[elanna9.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, good writing makes it all seem effortless, and that's the trick. Because it generally is not effortless to get to that point. I speak as one who's not found a way to avoid epithets yet. (though I do at least try to limit them and to be consistent.)

Some of the more florid epithets just make me laugh ... and LOL on the examples above! :D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

good writing makes it all seem effortless, and that's the trick

Yes, that's the trick, isn't it? I used to dance, and I worked so hard to have that fluid grace that the really great dancers had. They made it look easy, but even for them it wasn't. They had to learn and work hard and practice and be taught and corrected. Writing, like any art or craft, isn't so different. :-)

[jexay.livejournal.com]

Funny you should quote anise_anise... I did that. Yup. Guilty for using epithets right here. But not much anymore since working with Anise. She's really taught me a lot actually, including but not limited to basic English. Hahaha. Seriously. We'd be on the IM but writing our own stuff. I'd ping her and ask her, "What's that word that means so and so..." and she'd almost always have the word that I'm thinking of. It helps me a lot because half my struggle is the language itself. I'd send her unfinished snippets and he's hash it out. She tells me not to worry about using Harry and Draco's names too much which was why I used epithets to begin with. It helps to have someone that would tell you straight out that something sucks.

Much as I would like to write you a wince and cringe worthy drabble, I'm kinda in an angst fix and been writing nothing but and that just won't do. ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Hey, I have done it myself, and I know the struggle. That's why I feel qualified to post things like this, actually -- I've made all the writing mistakes one can make, but I've learned from the experience. ;-)

[mrshamill.livejournal.com]

Darling, I hope this means you're going to contribute to the (multi-fandom) Bad!Fic contest this year? Hmmm?? Don't make me come over there, now...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Hee! Sounds like fun!

[anise-anise.livejournal.com]

You know I don't mind at all, sweets. I'm just pleased my name's being mentioned with no wank attached. ;)

I am guilty though, just like the rest of us. I try not to read my very old stuff too often. *shudder* I'll probly think that about my newer stuff in another year. ;)

*loves on hard*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I say that sort of thing a lot, and I often find when I go back and look that my old stuff isn't quite as bad as I was imagining it to be. ;-)

[painless-j.livejournal.com]

I like how you did it :) And I like the discussion underneath. And the challenge! :D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

More people should take up that challenge! ;-)

[snegurochka_lee]

Some writers will say they are fond of using epithets to keep all the he's from getting confusing, but my argument is that if it's confusing, then it's a writing issue, not a pronoun issue.

OMG thank you. Maybe I'm a horrible person, but I have heard one too many people cite the pronoun thing as such a difficult thing about slash, and every single time, I can't figure out what they are complaining about. I've never had a problem keeping 'he' straight from 'he.' (it's every other aspect of the writing i have trouble with...) ;-)

It's not the fault of slash if you can't keep your pronouns right. Gah. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wonder if the people who really struggle with that issue are writing 3rd person omniscient. I always write 3rd person limited, so I'm grounded in one character's perspective on what's happening, and I don't find it hard to keep it all straight. You know?

[talanoa.livejournal.com]

Yes. Oh god yes.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Was that for the excerpt from Anise's awesome fic or for the post? ;-)

[gilawoof.livejournal.com]

Very interesting discussion you've inspired.

I know I just quit reading a fic that, other than the epithets, could've been quite good. It was totally unbearable, but I had no idea that it was one of those things that you can complain about. The epithet problem, I mean. Really, I suppose I always thought that if you couldn't, well, FEEL the way it should go, you wouldn't ever get it.

I love that you've hit right on the basic underlying excuse for the overuse of epithets, that being "but I already used his name!" and that that is exactly what is taught in english classes all along.

And that's my 75 cents.

Yes, 75. Worth it all, baby.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think painless_j made a really good point on her post that the reason kids are taught not to repeat a lot of words when they write has little to do with improving their writing and much to do with improving their vocabulary. But you know, I don't remember being told not to repeat names and stuff in dialogue. I must have had a good teacher. ;-)

[aliciajd]

I can name several excellent authors in this fandom whose early works were full of epithets and who have gradually weaned themselves away from their overuse. This has no doubt been done with the able assistance of excellent betas.

I really do enjoy seeing the growth of skills over a period of time.

The only thing worse found in these early fics than "the blond seeker" is "the blonde seeker". Unfortunately, the second usage seems even more pervasive than the first.

[rain206.livejournal.com]

What's wrong with the second usage?

[sev1970.livejournal.com]

As many people have pointed out on painless_j's post on this topic, a well-placed epithet can be used to convey important information about a character. The problem occurs when people do it simply to avoid repeating characters' names or "he" and "his" over and over.

Thanks for making that point - it is very important for people to know. I would hate for anyone to give people the idea that epithets are a strict no-no. They do have their place within a person's work as long as they are used extremely sparingly and/or if they are needed to express something about a character, as you said above. When I read pj's post, I immediately went to read the most current chapter of the fic I am writing. because I knew I had included a couple of epithets. I read through it and thought...hm, should I delete it or not? I decided to keep it because I believe it actually helped the flow of what was being said.

When I began writing in fandom three years ago, I did use epithets frequently, but I think if you are a writer who wants to improve, you do. You read other fics and you evolve in your own writing. If you are lucky, you absorb what you read and what you are told by good betas and editors.

It is all about what people want out of fandom. Me? I am probably about to enter into a Masters Program in writing, so my objective in fandom is to improve my skills to the highest level possible. Many others, however, only write in fandom for fun; many of them knowing they are not what many people would consider good writers. I think this is what is great about fan fiction. While I would rather read a well crafted novel-lenghth fic by a really good author, I do occasionally read fics by other authors who do not write that well, and usually I come out of it with a good experience. I commend anyone for putting their work out there for others to read. Sometimes it seems like there are certain people who scoff at these writers, wondering why they even post their work. I know sometimes I will see a fic and go..OMG what were they thinking - lol! But, they do have a right to post their work just as much as I do, mine. And those very people might read my stuff and go..What is that about?

Sorry, got a bit off track. I really am glad you made the point you did at the beginning.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

They do have their place within a person's work as long as they are used extremely sparingly and/or if they are needed to express something about a character,

It seems from your comment that you may already have read this thread (http://emmagrant01.livejournal.com/226230.html?thread=7890358#t7890358), but if not I'll point you to it for my opinion. ;-)

I decided to keep it because I believe it actually helped the flow of what was being said.

Yes, that's a big part of my point -- that you should choose the words you use when you write because of the feeling and meaning they give to the story, and not just for the sake of variety. That's not a good reason to add in extraneous information.

And yes, people all want different things out of fandom. Some people want to improve their writing, and some people just want to post whatever they've got, without really worrying about the quality. There's nothing wrong with that at all, unless you're in the second category and are bitter about the fact that your fic isn't getting as much attention as the fic of the person who's really been working to hone her craft. :-P

[valkyrie17.livejournal.com]

I find these posts very interesting and usefully instructive. It's a very good way of showing, by example, what works...and what doesn't.
Got a giggle out of the epithet-heavy drabbles that were posted.

(and I loved Open Surrender)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I found it really hard to read those drabbles! I was actually squicked. :-P

[zentariana.livejournal.com]

The most amusing part of this discussion is that it immediately brought to mind this story that I've tried to read several times. The summary sounds awesome and I'm very interested but I simply cannot read it. It's exactly like the joke-bad-writing I've read in your comments.

I'm not a very good writer and I'll let quite a bit slide, but epithets make life sad.

Also, just because I can type what I want, if I see the word "orbs" used to describe eyes, I immediately stop reading that story. It makes me want to hurt things.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, "orbs" is definitely a deal-breaker! :-P

[mistressmaraj.livejournal.com]

I'm so tempted to challenge people to write the worst possible epithet-filled drabbles and post them here, just for fun.
HAHAHA! Consider it challenged.

Lol, those are great drabbles! I had to add my two cents because my first story actually used the phrase “moronic epithet” in reference to the Daily Prophet’s headline: “Boy Who Lived Defeats You Know Who.” Also, it’s essentially an excuse to write more porn.

***

The one-time Surrey resident and former vanquisher of He Who Must Not Be Named brought his hand to his trousers, and in an astonishing one-handed gesture whipped out his resplendent purple-headed cock. (many thanks to my sister who can’t get through a conversation without reference to resplendent cock-euphemisms)

The serpentine blond was in awe and thus, fittingly, dropped immediately to his knees to show the purple cock head its rightful due.

The lion-toting hero-boy roared his pleasure as his cock was engulfed in warm, wet heat. A delicate pink tongue flicked toward the brunette’s cock, running its forked end, err sorry—too literal, running its moist tip along the equally moist head of the Gryffindor Golden Boy’s straining prick.

“I want to fuck you, oh boy wearing a green tie. Er, Draco. Sorry, you know I get incoherent when you do that thing with your tong—EEEE! Don’t stop!” The blond licked lascivious lips as he pulled his mouth off that delicious man-loving rod and stared deeply into lust-filled green eyes.

“Get on with the fucking then, Gryffindork. Let’s see what you’ve got.”

“Oh, I plan to make you squeak, Ferret boy,” stated the scarred orphan as he quickly lubed up his fingers and bent his favorite man-ferret over Flitwit’s desk (I don’t know why they are in the charms classroom, but come on, isn’t it kinky?).

Before he knew what hit him, the Slytherin boy felt a breeze on his arse and barely had time to wonder where his pants had gotten to before a slick finger had delved deep inside his anus, caressing his hidden channel lovingly.

The pureblood made all breed of near-hysterical, monkey-like noises as he was teased mercilessly by the half-blood. Finally, the sole heir to the Malfoy fortune felt a heavy weight, one that was decidedly not a pile of galleons, press against his backside. He moaned.

The Boy Who Lived had a cock that men would die for, and he slowly pressed the mammoth erection into the willing former prefect’s body. The two boys quickly worked up a furious rhythm, climbing higher and higher toward orgasm.

Just when the boy who was like a grandson to Dumbledore felt he could hold on no longer, the door to the charms classroom creaked open, revealing a dark silhouette.

“Professor Snape!” the natural blond (yes, I mean his pubies are also blond!) shrieked before spurting all over himself. Potter let out a manly shriek himself as his cock spent itself inside his sometime lover’s body.

ENDNOTE: A lifetime of detention would have befallen our darling duo had the lanky, greasy Potions Master not collapsed in a dead faint. The “incident” was never mentioned again.

***

Sorry! I got carried away…

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I just read that through my fingers! *shudders*

;-)

[elsie.livejournal.com]

Some writers will say they are fond of using epithets to keep all the he's from getting confusing, but my argument is that if it's confusing, then it's a writing issue, not a pronoun issue.

Thank you. Ohmygodthankyou. I've lost track of how many times I've argued and ranted (both silently and to the world) about this issue. It. Drives. Me. CRAZY. It's not enough to make me stop reading a fic that has a really good story as long as it's not taking over the text, but it really does detract significantly.

This made hogwarts_today (and I hope other newsletters), so maybe some people will get the picture. Folks listen to you, after all. :D

[elsie.livejournal.com]

Also ... tee hee, I just read that fic last night! I can't even talk about what it did to me. *squirm*

[alicambs.livejournal.com]

I couldn't agree more! There is nothing that throws me out of a story quicker than a gaggle of epithets (not sure what the collective noun is for large number of epithets *g*). I am aware that some people want to use them as they don't want to repeat names or the word s/he, but it's like using any number of alternatives to 'he said'. Useful occasionally, but very, very distracting and clumsy if used too often.

I really enjoyed this essay Banishing the Wild Epithet by Justine (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp159.html). It covers the same ground as your comment, is rather funny and uses HP characters to illustrate her points.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link to the essy! I've edited the post to add it. :-)

[daddybear716.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, and the funny thing is that my beta suggested their use in my last fic she read. It needed work, I admitted that when I sent it, but I don't think epithets were the answer.

She is a sweet kid and I enjoy our emails; plus she keeps me in line with my weaknesses in grammar and punctuation, but I may need a 2nd opinion beta reader.