I'm *not* being defensive, really!

[emmagrant01]

I've seen several people remark lately that the H/D side of the HP fandom is on the downslide, that no good fic is being written anymore, and that the 'ship lost its sails after OOTP came out.

As a writer who came into this fandom after OOTP and fell in love with H/D anyway, this continues to baffle me! I see wonderful H/D fic being written all the time by many, many talented people. It could be because I wasn't around during the halcyon days of the 'ship and just don't know any better. It could be that I have a different perspective on the role of canon in fandom, coming from a fandom in which one member of the OTP was dead before the fandom even started (which forced people to be loose and creative with canon from the start). Yes, I've read all the "classic" fics. I don't actually think they're fundamentally better than the fic being written today, though that could be because of my post-OOTP mindset and my preference for post-Hogwarts fic (in which the writer has a lot more leeway and creative freedom, IMHO). There were many more novel-length fics a few years ago than there are now, but I'm not sure that's what people mean when they bemoan the decline of "good" H/D.

I can't be the only one who doesn't understand the source of this claim. Is it a case of "shiny new toy getting old" for the older fandom folks, or is it really true that something fundamentally changed about H/D after OOTP, something that will never be recovered?

*wonders why she always misses the "golden days" of every fandom by arriving two years too late*

Comments

[pitchblackrose.livejournal.com]

*giggles* I'm with you on the 'late arrivals', many of the Big Names had mostly stopped writing when I got here.

And I read LMH (yet again *blush*) yesterday and it's just... so good. *adores you*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

*blushes* Thanks! This really wasn't a plea for feedback, I swear! ;-)

[ms-mindfunk.livejournal.com]

It can't be over yet; I just wrote & posted my first fic! Wah!

Seriously, I think people resent change. Naturally things are different than they used to be, so in a way they are right when they say it's dead. What existed before is gone, and this is what we have now. Love it or leave it, but don't try to recapture the past, 'cause it just won't happen.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting thought -- I'm sure the nature of the 'ship has changed, and maybe it's moved in ways that are no longer interesting or exciting to the folks who've been around for a while. Things do evolve, and such internet-based socially constructed concepts as this tend to evolve rather quickly.

[zhonnika.livejournal.com]

H/D goes in and out of 'style' (if you will) every few months, it seems. To me it seems that everyone is Marauders-crazy, and that might because of the release of PoA. I'm not really witnessing any decline in fics and several new groups have sprung up for the ship, so what one sees as a downslide, I do not ;)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Interesting! I guess most people on my flist are H/D or Sn/H, so I haven't seen that so much. Or maybe I just ignore the stuff I don't read! ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I also think that goes for many pairings. I see very little new novel-length fic anywhere in HP, and I'm not sure why.

Well, I can guess why. As a writer of longer stuff, it takes a different approach to fandom to get it done. LMH, for example, took eight months to complete. A novel-length fic I posted over the summer in another fandom had taken 2 1/2 years to complete! In the meantime, I wrote two other HP ficlets, one of which got very little attention. Most people who are currently well-known and considered BNFs for any HP pairing write a lot of short fic. It gets them noticed. They get recced a lot, and by people who do a lot of reccing.

I don't mean to imply that what I do is any better -- not at all! It's just different. I am often tempted to write and post a lot of ficlets, because that would be fun. I'd feel super productive! My web page would have tons of links on it! It'd be great fun to see my name mentioned a lot on rec lists, for a slew of fic! ;-) But I've made a committment to a big project that I love and feel strongly about, and I don't have time for anything else. Hmmm... I think I've whined about this before! :-P

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

Yes, I've read all the "classic" fics. I don't actually think they're fundamentally better than the fic being written today, though that could be because of my post-OOTP mindset and my preference for post-Hogwarts fic (in which the writer has a lot more leeway and creative freedom, IMHO).

Word to that, girl. I SO could have written that whole thing. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I really PREFER some of the newer stuff to the older things, but I am irreverent that way. :))

I have actually wondered if the disgruntled state of some of the old guard might be related to just personal growth and development. If this was really your OMG IT'S TRUE LOVE OTP!!!!!! kind of thing, you are going (one would hope!) to grow out of that at some point and take a more, erm, relaxed and slightly more adult view of the pairing and the fic involved. I also think that in ANY small group, there is natural resentment to the new people coming in and changing the dynamic of the place, and I do think some of this is simple primate, turf-protection posturing.

This is why fandom sociology and anthropology are where it's at for me, baby. People are queer animals, and this is one very cool natural habitat in which to watch them. *reaches for the popcorn bowl and the pen*

[zhonnika.livejournal.com]

Well, speaking as someone who was around back then I DO NOT resent the new writers and the kick to the ass this ship got. Not at all! :D When I was mooning over my SCUSA days a few weeks ago, it was or less me missing how new everything was then, and how small it seems in comparison now (with everything on LJ and so forth).

Hell, I've started a discussion journal and run two comms :)) I want people to write and analyze and discuss and have fun. Regardless of the fact of WHEN they got here.

But now I think *I* am getting defensive, so I'll stop :))

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I am right there with you on this. Perhaps my perspective is skewed by the fact that I actually enjoy one-shots just as much (often more) than novel-length fics, but every time someone says this it makes me crazy. Most of my favorite writers in H/D are writing fic now. Yes, some of them were writing back in the beginning as well, but I am actually quite grateful for the extra obstacles and complication that OotP gave us to work with. The harder it is to get there, the more interested I am in the journey. I'm sure lots of people will consider this as nothing more than the typical "newbie" reaction, but I'm grateful to be in a fandom with the likes of zionsstarfish and geoviki and the zillions of other amazing H/D writers who are almost as new to the fandom as I am.

So. Yeah.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The harder it is to get there, the more interested I am in the journey.

Abso-fuckin-lutely! I loved your essay on H/D, btw, along with everyone else! ;-)

I like to read one-shots, but I find it hard to write them. I'm not sure why. I wish I could! But everything I write seems to develop into something huge and plotty, no matter what I do. It slows the writing process considerably. And then, I'm paranoid and get everything beta'd two or three times by at least two people, just to make sure there isn't something I've missed.

Actually, geoviki doesn't write a lot of short stuff either, does she? *feels better*

[sorion.livejournal.com]

I don't think it has anything to do with OotP...

And there are still a lot of new HP/DM fics written (only just did a little one, myself and put it in my lj ^-^'').
Though most are being compared to the really big ones...

Don't worry about missing the golden days. Still a lot to be written and read ^-^'

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I sure hope so! :-P

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

This is pure speculation, based on no data whatsoever, but I wonder if "BNFs" - the people who write the high-quality, novel-length fics -- go fandom hoping. I mean, some of the old names I recognized from SW popped up in HP. So maybe they get into a new fandom, write something major, and then lose creative interest and move on to the next fandom? So when a new fandom starts up, it attracts the big-wigs, who then move on to something else - thereby perpetuating the idea that "when it all started" the fic was of high quality, and it subsquently declined when those people moved on.

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

So when a new fandom starts up, it attracts the big-wigs, who then move on to something else - thereby perpetuating the idea that "when it all started" the fic was of high quality, and it subsquently declined when those people moved on.

I don't think that BNFs are the only ones who write high-quality fic. There are so many lesser-known writers whose work is incredible. Personally I hate the status of BNFdom anyway, because all it does is cause bad feelings and middle-school kerfuffles and wank, wank, wank.

[saladbats.livejournal.com]

I feel a bit like I am in the middle of many things that are wonderful and H/D. I always have lots to read and often it is very good. In fact, I feel some days like I don't have nearly enough time to read all the new H/D that is coming out. Which is certainly not a complaint. 8)

I think with the release of each new book, more possibilities for the fic emerge. Certainly gives writers a bit more to chew on canon-wise.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the issue is that the fandom changes a bit with each new injection of canon. New people come in with new ideas and perspectives, and things change. People adapt, or don't. Some people mourn the old days when the fandom was smaller and the canon was different, and I can understand that.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

I've never understood that either, but I, like you, got into the fandom after OotP. Actually, that is why I seeked the fandom out because OotP had such an effect on me.

I have a hard time reading some of the classic H/D fics that were written before OotP because they paint a too rosy picture of their courtship. After OotP was written, it's a bigger challenge to get the two together which I find more interesting.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree completely! I like the challenge of taking these two kids who clearly hate each other and getting them to resolve their differences. I tend to like to do it when they're adults, though! ;-)

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

I've seen several people remark lately that the H/D side of the HP fandom is on the downslide, that no good fic is being written anymore, and that the 'ship lost its sails after OOTP came out.

I think it's most likely a problem in all pairings - there are more crap fics being put out there than good ones. For the HP/DM maybe it's more noticable because there are tons that, and it's the pairing these people prefer to read (me, included). Sometimes, it seems that if anyone wants to start writing HP slash they start with the HP/DM ship. Maybe because it seems to be the easiest to write.

I don't think that new fics are worse than the older fics, but I started reading fanfics during the long wait between the fourth and fifth book, so I'm not sure that I have much to go by.

I wonder if part of the problem is an "it's all been done before" thing, and that some things become cliche or overdone for those that have been into the pairing since the begining.

Maybe I'm making stuff up, I don't know.

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

Er...*myself included.

[patchfire.livejournal.com]

I think you hit the nail on the head in a comment above - that there's not much novel-length fic being written.

I never really thought of myself as an old-timer, but considering I first met people over on SCUSA and not LJ, and that was over two years ago O.O, maybe I am?

But the thing that drew me into the fandom, that drew me into H/D, was novel-length fics. And, damn, I miss novel-length fics. I do think that OotP had something to do with the decline in novel-length fics, especially where H/D is concerned. I can't think of a novel-length immediately-after-OotP H/D fic. (If there is one, Please please rec it to me!!)

I, however, hold out hope - I expect to see more novel-length fic again. I just think it's a cycle. Another two years, and maybe we'll be bemoaning the lack of one-shots. :D

(oh, and came this way via link from primroseburrows. :) )

[wonapalei.livejournal.com]

beren_writes has novel-length post-OotP H/D, but it's not immediately post-OotP. There's some interesting stuff over on AFF.net, though; Xylodemon (http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/authors.php?no=15570) has a novel-length fic (with sequel in the works) that's a another take on the H/D soulmates theme. And ChristineC (http://adultfan.nexcess.net/aff/authors.php?no=3875) has a gigantic projected arc of stories that picks up where OotP leaves off. It's got a lot of original ideas, and it'll probably take years to complete, but there's enough there (including a prologue to the entire arc that gives an intriguing glimpse into the future) to get an idea of the possibilities. And lilysunshine1 has a couple of stories out; the more recent one, "Hit the Floor," isn't quite novel-length, but makes a good novella (though again, it may not be directly post-OotP; I can't remember if it's sixth- or seventh-year).

So yeah, it's out there. Not in the same style as it used to be (which is good, since they're different authors who're writing!) and not as widespread, but there nonetheless.

[chuffing.livejournal.com]

I have a lot to say on this subject and it won't fit here most likely. Before I bore you to death, do you actually want to read it? I mean, I know that I wouldn't want to be subjected to me lol. I was going to email it and then I paused because I wasn't sure. I talk too much. *is embarassed of self*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Oh, please post it! You can do it in two comments, if you like... ;-) Yes, I'm definitely interested in hearing what you have to say!

[whitsun.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't read all that much H/D (mostly just post-Hogwarts) but from what I've seen in this and other fandoms, when 'ships get big, there's a lot more written. You look for new stuff, and instead of there being nothing, or a few fics, there are 20 every day, and by definition only a percentage of them are going to be good, and it's easy to miss the good stuff with so much to wade through.

And then there's the fact that as it grows, there are more ways to see the 'ship, and some/most of the best writers are going to move in new directions. If you're someone who doesn't want new perspectives, or you don't like darkfic, or parodyfic, or ambiguousness, or whatever, there's going to be less great stuff to read.

Add that to the popularity of livejournal, which makes it easy to post 15-minute non-betaed ficlets (which are often less satisfying to those who like a long, plotty story), and I can see how complaints start.

I've seen it happen in Highlander and Sentinel and Smallville (not so much in dS, tho)...but the answer, IMO, is to stretch your horizons and try different stuff, even (gasp!) a different pairing. Look at rec pages to get ideas on where to read. And if you're really still unhappy, for goodness' sake go write some yourself!

I don't know how this turned into a mini-rant. It's not directed at anyone, and like I said, I don't really know enough to say anything specific about H/D fic or its fans. But in general, yeah. I'm curious, though, if there are fen out there who really think they're owed "good" H/D? Me, I don't write, so I'm just pathetically grateful for what I get.

[whitsun.livejournal.com]

Ack. People posted while I was writing. Sorry for repetition.

[wonapalei.livejournal.com]

Ay-men, sister. I've been reading H/D for years now, and some of my favourite writers started up long after I did. Not to mention all the writers that are still writing, and whom people seem to be indirectly insulting when they say H/D's not as good as it "used to be". All right, so people like Aja and Rhysenn aren't as active as they used to be (in HP writing, that is; Rhysenn seems to have simply moved on into other fandoms, and Aja's incredibly involved in lots of RL stuff that I wish I had the guts and time to work with). But what about beren_writes? What about frulie's Amalgam? What about LMH? What about all the steady flow of good stuff coming from people like willysunny, zionsstarfish, novembersnow, dorrie6, olivia_lupin--the list goes on and on. (And if I've left you off the list, don't take offense; I'm simply tired of typing in LJ tags. :D )

And then there are the recently-started communities that are already doing quite well: almost_hd and hd_falling, to name just a couple. As well as seekertoseeker, which is serving the double purpose of reminding people of old-but-really-good fic and showcasing more-recent-really-good fic.

Maybe it's just that I know how damn lucky I am to be able to read this stuff. I am in no way, shape, or form a creative person, and am thus in the unenviable position of getting bitten by imaginary plot bunnies, i.e., plots whose possibilities I can only imagine, not work out fully. And not being creative, they're not always the greatest plots, and I don't realise them nearly as fully as I'd like. I'm in sheer awe of the talented few that can do this--although, quite frankly, I probably should let them know that more often. In any case, anyone lamenting the supposed lack of "good H/D" gets no sympathy from me. Count your blessings, people, and don't look a gift horse in the mouth! (Yeah, so I think in platitudes. I said I wasn't creative. :P ) They're not doing it for the money, and there's nothing even saying they have to share it with anyone.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

*raises hand*

Aja isn't involved for lack of trying! I wrote a fic a month ago! *points to it* And, uh, some drabbles! Yeah! And, um, a--oh, look over there! It's Sirius Black!

*runs*

[kinetikatrue]

So, I'm still fairly new to all this. I started reading HP fic less than six months ago with Underwater Light, went through most of the major H/D out there in about the first month, have since continued to read widely in both H/D and other pairings and would now consider myself to be not precisely an H/D shipper, but more a Gryffindor/Slytherin shipper if I ship anything at all.

Which is all a lead-up to say this: I think there's still plenty of wonderful, well-written H/D being produced. Perhaps not as much novel-length or even multi-chaptered as there once was, but still some of that(Left My Heart and its sequel; The Shadow of His Wings; Queer and There; Some Kind of Wonderful; Ourobouros; Same Time, Next Year; Sea Change). And beyond that, plenty of one-shots to keep one going.

Plus, there're definitely still new writers entering the fandom and planning to write stuff, even novel-length stuff. Heck, I can even put my hand up as one of them. So, me? I'm not at all worried about the state of the H/D fandom. I think it's doing just fine.

[thalia]

Looks like you hit a nerve, from the number of comments. [g]

I've seen this discussion start up in every single fandom I've ever been in--in fact, there was a post about Snape/Harry a few months ago that was almost exactly the same. It just seems to be part of the natural life cycle of fandoms.

Personally, I think the lack of longer stories is part of it. When I start complaining about declining quality in a fandom, what I usually mean is that it's been ages since I've seen a good, long story that I could get sucked into and reread over and over. For the last year or so long stories seem to be on the decline across the board; I don't know exactly why this is, but I miss them.

I think part of it, too, is that people who have been in a fandom for a while remember the early stories as being better than they were because they were new. In TPM, I have very fond memories of the first year or so, when there was some really fabulous stuff being posted. Rationally, I know that there was just as much drek then as there is now, but I was in a honeymoon period, and I was willing to overlook a lot of things that now would cause me to hit delete.

I suspect H/D--and every other fandom--will be just fine in the end. New writers will appear, and someone will write a terrific long story that gets everyone talking. Then book 6 will come out, and god knows what will happen. [g]

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

In TPM, I have very fond memories of the first year or so, when there was some really fabulous stuff being posted. Rationally, I know that there was just as much drek then as there is now, but I was in a honeymoon period, and I was willing to overlook a lot of things that now would cause me to hit delete.

I think that's a good point. We do tend to look back fondly on the stuff we read when a fandom was new and shiny. As someone who came in late to TPM, slogging through the archive is a painful process (having just done much slogging while looking for my last few recs, it's fresh in my mind). There's tons of crap (of course everyone has different definitions of crap, too, but still), much of which is quite old.

[zedmeister.livejournal.com]

I guess, for me, it's just that all the ficlets these days tend to blur together. Sure, at least one or two appear on my friends page every day, and I enjoy them while I'm reading them, but in a couple of days I've forgotten everything about them.

Nothing really *sticks out* the way the novel-length stories used to. Especially since H/D seems to be suffering from the "it's all been done" syndrome.

Although the writers who are most prolific right now are excellent by any standard, it seems like almost every story I read these days reminds me of at least five others. Oh, it's another generic H/D domesticity fluff piece. Oh, it's another failed H/D relationship, ten years down the line. Oh, it's another dystopic "the war is lost" fic. Oh, it's another fic consisting of Harry and/or Draco hitting on the other in Potions. And so on.

So yeah, for me it feels like H/D is winding down, and it all boils down to a feeling of repetitiveness. I'm not saying that the people who wrote H/D two, three years ago were better writers, because I don't think they were. But they had the advantage of being the first to explore themes which seem cliched to me now.

Hmm. And I guess it's not just the abscence of novel-length fics. It also seems that H/D today is suffering from a lack of authors with really distinct, unique voices in their short fics. Like silviakundera, or ivyblossom, or monochromal, or ztrin. Or look at mistful's stuff; her voice is so distinct, you can tell it's one of her fics practically two sentences in.

Of course, part of it is the huge volume of H/D being written today, but it just feels like there's much less *memorable* stuff.

[zupackpiepton.livejournal.com]

The greatest fafic in universe is Cassies Draco Drilogy, and that is pure H/D!
You jumped into the fandom AFTER OotP?? I jumped in after GoF and already thought I was a bit late.
And hey, H/D is NOT dying!!

[nicefeet.livejournal.com]

unfortunately I don't have anything intelligent to add, but the first line threw me for six so I'll offer my opinion anyway. I was in the fandom when it started (if in is constantly around without actually doing anything), missed the latter half of the glory days, and am back again . And through all that, I'm still a strong believer in H/D. However ootp opened up an awful can of worms that a lot of writers are hard pressed to overcome. What you see a lot of nowadays are people writing the story they want to write, regardless of where it fits into canon. In a sense, and even despite the angst, the classic stories are a lot more wholesome, light, fluffy, ooc ? I don't know exactly, than what is written lately, but the fandom has definately evolved into something grander. And possibly it's the higher standards or even just the fact that the fandom is so large that we can't get 'classics' anymore. But there's a heck of a lot of good stuff around, you just have to admit it's better than anything else. It's too widespread that it's hard to get widespread appreciation.
However, in the case of "shiny new toy getting old" I think maybe some writers of H/D have done, or have read, what they want to do with these characters and so are trying there hand at a number of other things (the rising number of H/D cliche/formulaic fics and analyses points this out to anyone just entering the fandom, ie "there's no point, it's been done"). Back in the day there was no way in hell you were going to find a hagrid/anyone story but the number of different pairings that are turning up shows the interest in exploring new places. Maybe H/D needs a kick-start, who knows, but I think there will forever be people around who just can't leave it alone.
meh... i think I said something in all of that... ^^;;

[eliminate.livejournal.com]

Well those people need to read more fic. They probably read one bad one and judge everything else. Or they they are getting bored (*GASP!*) of it.

I came into this fandom March, 2004 which is quite awhile after OotP came out. I know my fic isn't the best, but it isn't bad. And, I mean, your fic is wonderful as are other authors.

To put it simply: Bullshit.

[hearts-n-roses.livejournal.com]

I don't see quite as much novel length H/D as I used to, but I could just be looking in the wrong places. I do see plenty of very well written H/D fic though, I don't think the quality out there had declined at all. I think OotP had a bearing on the H/D dynamic, but not on the quality or quantity of the writing per se.

[jexay.livejournal.com]

I was introduced to fan fiction because of Lori's PoU. Naturally, I read nothing but H/Hr after that. I then fell into H/G thinking JKR will go this route in her books. And then, I read your fic.

LMH was the first H/D fic I read. It was brilliant! From there, I explored H/D rec pages and sites. I've since read a lot of excellent H/D fics. New, old, one-shots, drabbles and novel length, it didn't matter. I read them. Not to forget the excellent WIPs like Resolution, A Different Kind of You and Amalgam, to name a few. There's also plenty of good but probably abandoned fics as well. I would print the ones I enjoy reading. Now I have a file box full of H/D fics. I take the metro to work for a little over an hour each way. I read them then.

I may have started late but I fell like I haven't 'missed the boat' so to speak. There are so many fics out there. Majority not on rec pages. I liked 'Welcome to the Real World' by Iamthelizardqueen. I just happen to do an H/D search at FF.net and I enjoyed this immensely. It's not on any rec pages I've seen. Just one example.

I don't think H/D is dead or losing steam. One just has to channel Harry (or Draco) and 'seek' them out.

Sorry for the rant. *blush*

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. As someone who's been writing H/D for four years, of course, I can sort of say yes and no. Yes because I sort of put my pre-OotP H/D epic on hiatus when OotP came along and killed it, but I just started a new post-OotP one, so. For me, at any rate, OotP just confirmed the rather hopeless and inherently 'no happy ending' way I tend to write H/D (or for that matter, most pairings), but then...as most people write pairings to work out the issues between the characters and see them together in a functional way, or if not together, write them with the premise they have something to offer one another, the overt dysfunctionality of the H/D association in OotP may have scared them off? I dunno.

[gblvr.livejournal.com]

I don't understand that attitude - do people think just because there aren't twenty-odd multi-chaptered WIPs (that will never be finished) posted on a daily basis that the H/D ship is dead? Or is it that they think that everything new is crap? There are still plenty of people writing and producing art and cheerleading; and like any other pairing, there is going to be bad fic, bad art, and bad fen - there was bad stuff in the 'good old days' of H/D, too.