Somebody stop me!

[emmagrant01]

Before I hurt myself.

But seriously, I have a question. It appears that most people who participate in slash fandoms are politically liberal (or left-wing, if you prefer that term). I realize that means many different things in different countries, of course, but when I cruise my f-list, I see lots of people who support gay marriage, who oppose the war in Iraq, who oppose the Bush administration in the US, and so on. It could just be a product of who happens to be on my f-list, but I'm not sure.

So are slashers, in general, more liberal than the average person on the street? Why or why not?

If you're not liberal and are a slasher, do you feel like a minority? Do you find it difficult to express your views?

ETA: The terms "liberal" and "conservative" mean different things to different people and aren't even opposites -- it's possible to be a liberal conservative, for example. I would love to hear what the word "liberal" means to you if you're applying it to yourself, or even if you don't.

I'm also curious to hear from people who don't support gay rights and believe homosexuality is immoral, yet who read and/or write slash. I know you're out there! I'd love to hear what you think!

Comments

[loony-moony.livejournal.com]

Well, I could give you only my non-US-resident opinion on that matter. I am everything you just said, yes, just in my own country. What I can say is that, as a devoted slasher, I am far more involved in the fight for gay rights than the average person. I think that fantasy makes you crave for making it true. When I constantly read about couples of various gay pairings deal with issues as marriage, kids and embedding legal rights in their relationships, the more I feel how bad the situations would be for them in our reality, and I am mostly speaking about the US, although not entirely.
Also, slash fandom is basically a big online community, and when prominent and popular members are constantly posting about liberal issues (gay rights being one of them), people tend to get influenced.

My two cents. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I don't know where you live, but my impression is that the average American is much more conservative than the average European. Do you think the international community of fandoms like HP has an impact on that slant to the left?

[versinae.livejournal.com]

I think they probably are, in general. Of course, one could be pro-gay rights but anti-abortion and in favour of the Republican economic theory (which they don't seem to be paying much attention to nowadays), vote Republican but not be 100% happy with them, and still be a nonhypocritical slasher, at least in my opinion. But I'm not sure that you'll find a whole ton of people like that.

Then again, I'm born and bred as one of those crazy "Massachusetts liberals". I moved to one of the only other places in the country that has/had for a while gay marriage (Portland, OR). (See icon!) The college I go to has the official unofficial slogan "Communism, Atheism, Free Love" stamped on all their stuff. The most conservative person my age votes Democratic barely, mostly because of the war. I don't think I'd recognize a conservative if I saw one.

[lauramcewan.livejournal.com]

::waves from another local::

what college, reed?

[geoviki.livejournal.com]

I've noticed it, too. But I was a liberal long before I became a slasher. I'm convinced the issues are linked, though. I live in a "red" (read: Republican) state, where the senator who originated the bill to ban gay marriage resides. And obviously, the "red" and the "ban" are connected, at least in the USA. Unfortunately.

[nike-victory.livejournal.com]

I'm also from Colorado and not terribly pleased with Marilyn Musgrave - which I let her know in semi-polite terms.

I was raised among Republicans but nobody really shared political views with me aside from basic education of their existance until I started college and was surrounded by considerably more liberal people.

I don't really see myself aligning with either political party. Both have things I agree and disagree with and I tend to go with whoever I think would represent me best, no matter what party. At the moment, it's not Bush. I'm also unhappy we're losing Ben Nighthorse-Campbell. I may not have always agreed with his reasoning, but he did good and was the only one that didn't insult my intelligence when I wrote letters to my representatives about the marriage amendment.

[cheshyre]

Great. Now I'm starting to think of a story regarding the ethics of abortion if a wizard and witch discover in utero that their child will be a squib...

[versinae.livejournal.com]

So *that's* why the Malfoys only have one child...

I'm not a right-winger but I play one on tv....not.

[amberleewriter.livejournal.com]

I'm what I like to term a radical reactionary. When I bother to align myself with an actual political party, I do so with the Libertarians. I am VERY right conservative about fiscal issues and VERY left on social ones. I don't find it difficult to express my views to anyone – including my very bigoted republican family members – because I'm a loud mouth that believes that it is my responsibility to push for equality and freedom for all beings as part of my self actualization. I'm cool with people disagreeing with me as long as they do it because they've thought about the situation and have a reasoned opinion. Only people that blindly follow along with something like lemmings cause me to get my dander up and then I just spend my time trying to challenge whatever they believe so they think for themselves – not because I want them to think like me. In fact, you'll often see me take BOTH sides of a issue in an argument (or the one I don't personally believe in) just to make sure that equal time gets given to all sides.

But I'm odd.

While I am socially "liberal" I do know a few people in slash/yaoi fandoms that are "conservative" in the social sense. I know people that are very religious and say that they don't support homosexuality yet roleplay homosexual characters and draw depictions of homosexual sex. These individuals, when they do express that they think homosexuality is wrong and that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to marry, get flamed mercilessly on every board and group I'm on. It's very difficult for them to express any form of political views and they are often at odd with LJ and online friends. They have expressed to me that they feel beaten down and ridiculed for having "moral standards." They say that drawing depictions of homosexual activity between fictional characters, writing slash of fictional characters, and role playing characters that are not real has nothing to do with REAL people and REAL homosexuals. They insist that their support of erotica and slash is not in conflict with their religious beliefs that homosexuality is a sin.

I, personally, don't quite understand the logic used. I often engage these individuals in conversation to try and understand how they can reconcile their beliefs with their actions. I am still unsure how they manage it. However, I do know several people of this sort and they stalwartly stick by their art, their writing, and their insistence that homosexuality is immoral and gay marriage is wrong and against the laws of God and nature.

So, while I'm not one of these people, I can answer question two with yes, they feel like a minority online and yes they find it difficult to express their views.

Re: I'm not a right-winger but I play one on tv....not.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

When I bother to align myself with an actual political party, I do so with the Libertarians.

There are quite a few Libertarian slashers, it seems! Makes sense, when you think about it.

They say that drawing depictions of homosexual activity between fictional characters, writing slash of fictional characters, and role playing characters that are not real has nothing to do with REAL people and REAL homosexuals.

I've heard that argument as well, and I'm always curious to hear more about it. I'm not exactly sure why reading or writing about fictional homosexuality is okay, while it's immoral and sinful in reality. One person who felt that way put it to me this way: "I love reading murder mysteries, but I don't condone killing people in real life."

I think that's a terrible analogy, because I doubt most people who read murder mysteries are getting off on the murder part. They like the solving of the mystery. In slash, however, it's hard to argue that you're not getting on on the idea of two hot guys fucking, on some level. People read and write slash for many reasons, of course, but I truly think that anyone who says they're not interested in the sex is lying out their ass.

So what's the difference, really, between fictional homosexuality and real homosexuality? I would really, truly like this explained to me.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

*lol* you seem to be desperately looking for a good argument?

i also can't believe you don't get it on lj. i guess you just have the right sort of friends (here)!

always was what might be called a liberal without needing a label.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Am I looking for an argument? Am I a glutton for punishment? *shrugs* I'm learning a lot, though, especially from the people who disagree with me! ;-)

[samantha543.livejournal.com]

So are slashers, in general, more liberal than the average person on the street? Why or why not?

Yes, I think that's a given. All one has to do is look around... I know that my friends list is about 90% liberal instead of about 60% found in my friends in real life. People who like writing about gay people generally support gay rights. And people who support gay rights are generally liberals...

If you're not liberal and are a slasher, do you feel like a minority? Do you find it difficult to express your views?

I'm a conservative. Yeah, I feel like the minority. No, I don't find it difficult to express my views. I support gay rights, though, so that most likely makes things easier. However, I know someone on my friends list who a while back posted about how she was a Republican and supported gay rights, and she got called a hypocritical bigot by at least one person. Some people are just idiots who need to learn how to respect other people's beliefs.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm never sure if my f-list is a good sample of slashers or not, you know? My fic is occasionally political, and always NC-17, so it could be that people who are significantly more morally conservative than me wouldn't have friended me in the first place.

You say above that you're a conservative who supports gay rights. I'm assuming that your onservative bent must be economic, or something? Could you tell me more about what it's like to be a pro-gay rights conservative?

(I'm not being facetious; I'm really curious because I don't know anyone like that.)

[kat99999.livejournal.com]

Fore warning - I probably will stop making sense about a quarter of the way through this, and I may not actually have a point. *giggle* But I was just drawn to this question <3

I think what it is, with slashers being more liberal, is not so much that slashers become liberal people, but liberal people become slashers. I don't think anybody who wasn't in support of gay rights would really deeply emerge themselves in the slash fandom, and really the people who have Livejournals are quite involved with this community, or are hoping to be. So it sort of follows that you would see that sort of support driven towards homosexuality, and therefore I think it extends to most minority groups and the support of those also.

I think people in the slash fandom are very much on the side of Free Choice and the right to make your own decisions, and that falls in with being anti-war and, really, anti-Bush. Because from what I've heard about George Bush (being English I don't know as much as I might otherwise, heh), he is so anti-choice, with regard to abortion and war and marriage rights, that he is really not the appealing choice to a liberal person. At least, that's why I dislike him so much, along with his complete one sidedness. I think this fandom tries to be very much about taking on different views and opinions, and people here want to learn. Which is ironic, because alot of the arguments that seem to happen derive from not accepting different views and opinions, and so it all gets a bit confusing.

*smirk* Man, I'm so itching to write some sort of essay. Roll on, uni, before I start analysing QAF or the HP fandom on my journal! *giggle* I don't suppose any of that made sense ;) ;) ;)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

is not so much that slashers become liberal people, but liberal people become slashers.

Yeah, that's what I've often thought. If you were against gay rights, thought homosexuality was a sin, etc., why would you be interested in reading/writing slash in the first place? that said, I do know there are people who believe homosexuality is a sin and who read and write slash anyway. There's more on that in some comments above.

I've also heard people say that they used to be fairly homophobic, and one day stumbled across slash fanfic. It squicked them, but for some reason, they found it intriguing and read it. Over time, they changed their minds completely and became supporters of gay rights in RL. Clearly, this is a really complicated issue.

Man, I'm so itching to write some sort of essay.

*grins* Go for it! Thanks for contributing your thoughts!

[corinnethewise.livejournal.com]

I come from a conservative family and a very conservative (and religious) city. Then I found the internet and made friends with some liberals and realized that I really was quite liberal, suddenly all the things that I had been thinking quietly to myself (I was the one fifth grader who went: "But isn't health care for everyone good?" when we learned about the difference between Canada and the US) made sense and I was finally out of the minority and part of the majority in the fandom and on LJ. I would think that anyone who reads slash but still says that they are against homosexality is half fooling himself and half being a fucking idiot. Because if it's against your religious beliefs or if you just think it's icky (the two reasons to be against homosexuality) I disagree with you but know you have the right to think that, but neither of those reasons gives wiggle room for reading or writing slash.

::looks back and realizes this has nothing to do with the original question:: Sorry.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I would think that anyone who reads slash but still says that they are against homosexality is half fooling himself and half being a fucking idiot.

LOL! I don't think I'd phrase it that strongly, but yeah, I wonder about that too. Part of it is that I don't undertand where they're coming from. Maybe it would make more sense to me if someone would explain why that's a logical position to hold.

[nattish.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about this a lot, what with the presidential election inspiring so many pro-Kerry (or, at least, anti-Bush) entries on my flist. I feel particularly alienated when I read entries about slash or gay rights that assume, because I support those things, that I also support other mainly liberal ideals.

I don't like to think of myself as a conservative, because I'm extremely liberal on many social issues, but I am a Republican. So, yeah, around here I feel like a minority. But then, I usually do, being both black and a Republican, being pro-gay in an anti-gay town, being anti-abortion in a pro-abortion circle of friends, being secretly bisexual with an openly homophobic best friend. It's all quite annoying; but, no, I don't have trouble expressing my views---on LJ, at least. It's fun to state your opinion without risking dirty looks from friends and family.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I feel like a minority. But then, I usually do, being both black and a Republican, being pro-gay in an anti-gay town, being anti-abortion in a pro-abortion circle of friends, being secretly bisexual with an openly homophobic best friend.

Wow. Could you be a minority in any other way? One of the great things about the internet, of course, is that you can express your views on more of an equal footing with everyone else. IMO, of course! ;-)

Do you feel that people in fandom respect your right to hold a semi-conservative views? Well, I guess when you step away from gay rights-related issues, it probaby isn't such a big deal. Thanks for commenting!

[sylvertongue.livejournal.com]

Hi, Emma!

This is an incredibly interesting question, and one that's been striking me a lot lately when reading my flist. It's worth some thought. For context, I'm Australian, so my view is a little, well, off-shore. ;)

I think that yes, in general, slashers are more liberal. I can't speak for fiscal issues, so I'm going to deal solely with the equal rights and freedom of choice movements.

I agree with makesmewannadie above - I think liberal attitudes in fandom have a great deal to do with the predominant demographic represented here. It's a discussion point that comes up fairly often when I'm talking to my Australian friends about America, Bush, and how high the chances really are that he will not serve a second term in office.

The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that my flist is hardly the most balanced picture of America, and that's entirely to do with demographic. From what I observe, slashers are predominantly highly educated, highly literate, and probably as a result, tend toward being very open minded - or at least have considered their own opinions and know why they believe the things they do. Education and greater world experience (either vicariously through literature or the net, or through interaction with diverse individuals) are the keys to an open and accepting person who truly believes all men were created equal.

The point's been made a few times above - if you read about gay characters, and you love your characters, it hurts that they couldn't have the relationship you've painted for them in real life. And why not? Most fen spend hours and hours every week in fandom, whether that be reading fic, roleplaying, writing, or just interacting with other fans. How much time do you have to spend immersed in slash before homosexual relationships are truly the norm in your mind? I'm sure many of us have had that few seconds of complete incomprehension when we encounter a homophobic individual in real life - that head-tilting, does-not-compute moment while we try to understand what on earth this other person is on about. Because for a slasher, what's more normal than two men in love?

There's also the view that slashers are a very intellectual crowd, and we just love to take theories, interpretations, relationships and plots to pieces and see how they work. We ask the what-if questions - we have to! If there's any genre that's adept at looking deeper into an issue find ways around it, it's slash. We've got to be! It simply takes that kind of work to pull a plausible slash story out of textually het source material.

We've trained ourselves to look for the nuances. We've very self aware - we know where our theories come from and can provide reams of supporting evidence to back them up. And we love to analyse. Most importantly, slashers spend an awful lot of time asking, "Why not?"

There's the minority splits in fandom to consider - the slashers v. the het crowd, the H/D shippers v. the H/S shippers and so on. I think we also learn to appreciate, accept and respect that others have different veiwpoints, and that certainly can't hurt us when we carry the knowledge into real life interactions.

So I suppose what I'm saying is that slash does tend to draw people who are more likely to have a more cosmopolitan attitude in the first place - and that then, once they're in, fandom is an excellent training ground for critical thinking, self examination, and learning from differing viewpoints around you.

Phew! Sorry about the spam. :/ Got a bit carried away, and probably lost my points in the middle there somewhere. Hope that was in some way useful.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

First of all, thanks for such a thoughtful response! I was hoping I'd hear from non-Americans!

The thing I have to keep reminding myself is that my flist is hardly the most balanced picture of America.

This, unfortunately IMO, is true. I've lived in really conservative areas of the US for all of my life, and participating in slash fandoms was partly so intriguing because it marked the first time in my life that I felt part of a community that agreed with me! But then, the point of this post was to find out if that's really true or not...

From what I observe, slashers are predominantly highly educated, highly literate, and probably as a result, tend toward being very open minded - or at least have considered their own opinions and know why they believe the things they do. Education and greater world experience ... are the keys to an open and accepting person who truly believes all men were created equal.

I'd love to agree with this completely, but I honestly think it depends on the fandom. Some fandoms seem to attract a narrow demographic of people, while others appeal to a wider audience. For example, I think your description above describes the older slash fandoms (Star Wars, Trek, etc.), while huge fandoms like HP are really difficult to classify. Of course, we fen also separate ourselves into subgroups according to interest, so maybe my little subgroup of the HP fandom does look more like you suggest!

How much time do you have to spend immersed in slash before homosexual relationships are truly the norm in your mind?

A great question, and this is why I'm so interested in hearing from people who read and write slash, but yet oppose gay rights in RL. One thing I've wondered about is how many people's perspectives on gay rights have shifted considerably as a result of participating in fandom? It seems it could have a huge impact.

There's also the view that slashers are a very intellectual crowd, and we just love to take theories, interpretations, relationships and plots to pieces and see how they work. ... It simply takes that kind of work to pull a plausible slash story out of textually het source material.

I have to agree here, if for no other reason than that I want that to be true! It's a very interesting point, and one I'm going to keep thinking about... I have to say that I'm open to things that would totally have squicked me two years ago (like interesting kinks and poly relationships), and it's completely because of fandom.

There's the minority splits in fandom to consider - the slashers v. the het crowd, the H/D shippers v. the H/S shippers and so on.

This is something that seems unique to HP, from my perspective as a person who writes in multiple fandoms. I'm constantly amazed by the variety and diversity of fic, pairings, and fen in HP! Those subgroups do seem to have their own little cultures. They certainly have their own cliches and ideas about what's considered acceptable fanon and what isn't, what's OOC and what isn't, etc.

fandom is an excellent training ground for critical thinking, self examination, and learning from differing viewpoints around you.

I certainly agree that it can be. Some people cloister themselves in their little subgroup, but others seem to go out of their way to embrace diversity and develop their critical thinking skills.

Thanks again for your interesting comments!

[ewacat.livejournal.com]

Same here.

[nqdonne.livejournal.com]

A very good question :) I've actually really started to notice the liberal lean on my f-list lately, so much so that I tend to skim right past any entry that is politically centered... not so much because I'm not political (or open-minded) myself, but because I *am*... and I definitely feel in a minority because I tend in the opposite direction of most.

I've discovered recently that I'm leaning more and more conservative, though not so much on social issues, like gay rights. I am 100% liberal on those sorts of things (and they keep me from declaring myself Republican, that's for damn sure), though rather conservative about things like the economy, education reform, and foreign policy. I'm almost but not quite a Libertarian, I think. But that's beside the point... to answer your question, as a slasher who does not consider herself a liberal, yes, I do feel like a minority, and I tend not to express my views so as not to get involved in internet arguements. I am far more likely to engage in those sorts of conversations in person, with my RL friends, but not online.

And, yes, I think slashers are overwhelmingly liberal, at least in terms of social policy (specifically and most obviously about gay rights). I agree completely with what others are saying: I think it has to do with the demographics on Live Journal, the internet, and even in the fandoms in which we circulate. And I've also found (at least going to school in Boston, lol) that a LOT of people our age (18 to 30-ish) are more liberal nowadays.

Meh... my comments probably make no sense, lol. I get all befuddled when I talk about this stuff :) But, seriously - this is an excellent question and I'm really glad you asked it. I had been feeling rather left out and it's nice to have a forum in which to say something.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I am 100% liberal on those sorts of things... though rather conservative about things like the economy, education reform, and foreign policy.

I said this in a comment somewhere above, but I realized almost immediately that the terms "liberal" and "conservative" means different things to everyone. Moreover, they aren't even ideological opposites, so that confuses the issue even further. BTW, you do sound like a Libertarian!

I've also found (at least going to school in Boston, lol) that a LOT of people our age (18 to 30-ish) are more liberal nowadays.

I'd love to believe that was true! I work at a university, and though there's definitely a liberal lean on campus, there's also a strong Republican/conservative presence. I can imagine it's very different in Boston! ;-)

Thanks for commenting!

[cbspacecowboy.livejournal.com]

Well, at the risk of being redundant, I shall post my thoughts.

I would have to agree with what everyone else has been saying. Slashers are generally more liberal, which is mainly because extremely conservative probably wouldn't be reading slash. Yes, there are some people who are conservative and I don't quite understand how that works, but it does. In fact there was this one ML that I was on where everyone was talking about how the Massachusetts state legislation had made gay marriage legal. Naturally everyone was expressing their excitement, but one of the conservative members left a fairly rude comment telling us to stop talking about it and get back on topic. This person got off on the idea of two men having sex, but was against it in RL. So, this does happen, and I think that although these people are in the minority, if they are polite about how they express these views the more liberal people are respectful of that, just as we'd hope they would do for us.

I would also have to agree with whoever it was that said the fandom in general leans more to the left. I think that that is partially because the internet attracts a younger crowd.

It was my friend who actually got me into slash, and at the time I didn't really have any real political views, but my mother was more liberal, and so I was too. I didn't really have a problem with homosexuality, but I didn't really understand it either. Of course I read slash and haven't looked back since. I am now very liberal, and quite outspoken about my views. So I think that it can go either way, you come because you are liberal, or come and are liberal because of it, or at least more liberal in some aspects.

I would also like to say that, as an American it is very interseting to hear the perspectives of people from other countries, especially since I tend to agree with what they say. ^_^

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think I'm on that mailing list you describe above; at least, something similar happened on one of the HP lists I'm on. I also thought it was interesting that the topic was declared OT, since lists I'm on in other fandoms embraced the topic and discussed it at length. As I've said somewhere else above, I think the HP fandom is more diverse than many, if for its size than for no other reason.

So I think that it can go either way, you come because you are liberal, or come and are liberal because of it, or at least more liberal in some aspects.

I'm curious how many people's views on gay rights issues have been changed because of their participation in fandom? My were fairly well-cemented before, and that's part of what attracted me to slash, but I imagine there are people for whom it was the other way around.

I would also like to say that, as an American it is very interseting to hear the perspectives of people from other countries

Me too! It's been so interesting to read!

[waiyza.livejournal.com]

This is a very interesting discussion. I just want to point out before I answer your questions that unlike most people on this thread I am liberal but am not a slasher. Do I think being gay/lesbien is bad? My religion does not support it. But, I, myself am not going to tell a gay/lesbien person that they're going to hell and they're sick, and whatever. I'll leave that up to God.

Basically I don't support gay/lesbien people, but that does not mean I don't support gay/lesbien rights. Does that make sense? I think everyone should have basic rights, even if they're gay/lesbien. But I don't I guess...approve of the lifestyle. If that is however the way a person want's to live, then that is totally up to them and I don't necessarily think they are a bad person. Yes, I don't approve of them being gay/lesbien but that doesn't mean I'm going to go all crazy on them because of it. It's their descisions.

Have I confused you yet? Basically I don't support the gay/lesbien lifestyle, but I do think gay/lesbien's should have the same rights as a heterosexual person.

I think that's why I can bear reading slash. Yes you heard it I read slash. Not, much. But occasionally I'll read a slash story, and it's always very light slash (and usually the slash is very slow to develop). Because although I don't support the lifestyle I can still enjoy all the non-slash parts, and the writing.

ok did that make any sense at all?

So are slashers, in general, more liberal than the average person on the street? Why or why not?

The answer is pretty easy: yes. But I think that's because LJ and the entire Fandom community is pretty liberal in general. I found that people who are liberal are more likely to become involved in a fandom. LJ itself is full of teens, who are most of them very liberal.

And if you don't agree with my views that is fine I totally understand.

Wow! Interesting perspective!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

First, thanks so much for going out on a limb and commenting here!

Second, I think you're the first person I've met who describes herself as liberal, yet believes homosexuality is immoral. I'm wondering if you could define the term "liberal" as you see it? It clearly means different things to different people.

Third, you've stated above that you do read "mild" slash, despite your views of homosexuality. I'm wondering if you would mind explaining what appeals to you about it, even though the basic premise of two men (or women) in a sexual/love relationship is not appealing? This is a topic I've been wondering about for a long time, so I'd be grateful for an answer to that!

[xenelle.livejournal.com]

I'm In Australia where our Prime Minister is trying to pass a similar bill that Bush is and just decided to air my thoughts here. I think that most slasher's a like the idea of unconventional pairings, and HP has a decided lack of females, so its difficult to femmeslash, and there is more of a focus on the males in cannon so that's where most of the focus goes, most of the fics I read have Harry as the main char. (though that could just be the amount of HP/DM I read) I started my fanfiction reading Xena/Gabrielle, mainly as a way of seeing if i was gay or not - have decided that I'm Bi.

I don't see being a slasher as being liberal, more like being tolerant/accepting, I've yet to read a story where someone actively chooses to have an abortion. That I'd like to read, we have no problem with gay people beacuse most of the fanons we read the characters' universe could work as a metaphor for alternate lifestyles, Remus as werewolf could be gay, that's why Snape let it loose in 3rd year, can't have a gay man teaching, the potion could be to supress his abnormal urges. Or it could be a metaphor for AIDS/HIV, again stigma - its the 'gay' illness, it could be caught - that's why Snape told, the potion is his meds.

I personally be equality for everyone, I don't actually see the fuss on marriage, who cares who's getting married, its their business, also its supposed to be a celebration of love and commitment, if we're meant to be in the middle of a war against terrorism, people deciding to get married should be a good thing.

I've always though that abortion should be legal, just measures taken to ensure that it's not used as a birth-control device. I have friends who know someone who does it.

The amount of people who were against the war here in Australia ensured that our PM didn't hold a referendum like he was gonna, he arbitarily decided that we should go, unlike having the public vote.

Like the other people have said, we are liberal and we slash, its probably a demographic thing, or an age thing, or even a gender thing, I don't know many straight men who read/write slash, i don't have many male friends who read fanfiction so it might just be me.

And now that I've had my little rant I shall go.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for such a thoughtful comment!

HP has a decided lack of females, so its difficult to femmeslash, and there is more of a focus on the males in cannon so that's where most of the focus goes

That's an interesting comment, because I came to HP from Star Wars, where there really aren't any female characters! One of the things I found interesting about HP was that there were so many possible pairings to read and write about. I myself have written Ginny/Luna, and I've read a lot of Hermione/Ginny. It depends on your perspective, I guess.

I don't see being a slasher as being liberal, more like being tolerant/accepting, I've yet to read a story where someone actively chooses to have an abortion.

Hmmm... I don't think I have either, come to think of it. However, I mostly read slash, and so the odds of someone getting pregnant are pretty small. And the whole point of m-preg fic is for the male character to have a baby, usually, so it's hard to imagine a writer would have the character get an abortion in that situation. But I'd be interested in reading such a story, of course!

Or it could be a metaphor for AIDS/HIV, again stigma - its the 'gay' illness, it could be caught - that's why Snape told, the potion is his meds.

I've heard someone say that before, and I think that's a fabulous metaphor!

I don't know many straight men who read/write slash

I know one straight man who reads and writes m/m slash, but he's primarily a femmeslasher. I know a few bisexual men who are slashers, but that's about it. Occasionally a gay man will pop up on a slash list and ask why the heck all the straight/bi girls are writing this stuff, though, which is entertaining. Many essays have been written on the reasons why fanfic writers tend to be mostly female, so I won't go into the details here... ;-)

Thanks for your comments!

[vichan.livejournal.com]

I'm not new to slash - I've been skulking around various fandoms since I was 13. I even 'slashed' characters when I was a little kid, too - I was convinced that Bert and Ernie were married (I don't remember this - my mother was telling me about it). I'm not new to being liberal, either. I was raised by two former hippies in the town of Kent, Ohio, which is a very liberal city. (The rest of Ohio is scarily conservative. It's a lot of... Amish country. And farms. And a couple of dirty cities, like Cleveland.)

I am new to politics. I didn't pay attention to any of it when I was growing up - I couldn't vote, so I figured there wasn't any point. I even protested the school elections (and I still would - the whole process is just very fucked up). I missed the last presidential election because I was still 17. This upcoming election is going to be my first, and I only really recently started listening to what was going on.

So... I had a point, and I entirely lost it. I need to go to bed.

Anyway, all the slashers I know IRL are liberal. Of course, I don't know all that many conservative people. O.o I have known conservative slashers online, and one that I met a couple of years ago explained it really well - that no matter where you look, you'll always find an exception to the majority, because people are complex.

(Definitely lost my point. Definitely need to sleep. This comment doesn't make any sense, but I'm posting it anyway. *click*)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I even 'slashed' characters when I was a little kid, too - I was convinced that Bert and Ernie were married

You know, I can't help but look at that cute little Pansy icon as I read this, and picture you as a little tiny slasher! I wondered about Bert and Ernie myself, but I think I was a little older... ;-)

I have known conservative slashers online, and one that I met a couple of years ago explained it really well

Do you remember enough of her argument to reconstruct it here?

[muffytaj.livejournal.com]

No, they are no more liberal than the average person. In fact, some slashers I've seen are more conservative than hetters.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Interesting! I know that the people who are likely to see this entry at all are probably predisposed to being more liberal, so I don't kid myself that the opinions I get here are really representative of the larger community. You're the first person who's said this, though. Is it based on the people you know in fandom, or on something else?

[leather-rebel.livejournal.com]

well here it goes:
i live in Lebanon (middle east) and here beeing gay is not allowed so everything goes underground...as a devoted slasher (myself beeing heterosexual) i fight for gay rights , not because they are gay but because i feel that everyone should bo allowed to live their lives the way they want , no matter what religion,belives,sex,race....

*Applauds*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Good for you! I think this is the first time I've met a slasher from a country in the middle east. I have a bunch of questions, but I'll understand if you don't feel comfortable answering them!

How did you get into slash? Do you know other slashers in RL, or is it something that's entirely underground in your country? Did you hold your particular political views before you got into slash, or was fandom influential on your views? (I know it can go either way for a lot of people.) Are you a public supporter of gay rights in any way?

Thanks for commenting!

[sileas.livejournal.com]

I'm not from the US, so I can't tell you if I'd vote Republican or Democrat there. From the comments above, it seems to me that there is a difference between Repubs and Demos about taxes and social security issues.

However, I can tell you that before I discovered slash, I wasn't in the conservative camp. Conservative camp means catholic here, and I was raised anti-catholic in a way although my mother always sent me to catholic schools. So I was never going to vote for the catholic party although most of my views then would have been in line with the conservative party.

My parents are anti-gay, anti-gay rights and racists. My mother thinks women should find a wealthy husband, stay home and raise kids. Yet they vote for the most progressive party there is, because they think that's the right choice. I was raised to believe being gay was wrong and disgusting.

I never really trusted my mother's morals and views on the world (and never really trusted her in general), so I was willing to expand my horizons and see everything with my own eyes. When I came across the MA website my interest was picqued by the statement that the website contained homosexual pairings and content of an adult nature. I went in, expecting pictures of naked men having lots of dirty sex. It came as quite a surprise to see a very nice and decent website with nice and decent stories. And the sex? Delicious. Absolutely delicious. My second big surprise came with the knowledge that *women* wrote these stories!

But did that change my views on homosexuality? No. Slash is fictional stories and I doubt they represent 'real' homosexual lifestyle (can women really represent a genuine homosexual relationship?). Does gay porn represent real gay life? No, I don't think so either. The only way to really get a decent view of homosexual lifestyle is to have some friends who have knowledge of it, and I did not have friends who could enlighten me. The MA mailing list enlightened me though. Once in a while, there were links to articles about gay lifestyle, about gaybashing, about gay rights. After three years of reading slash, I think, I began to search for local gay and lesbian sites and began to understand. That's also when I came to grips with me being a lesbian. Reading slash didn't make me realize. Reading non-fiction did.

Now I'm pro-gay rights, pro-porn and pro-choice and whatever else (still anti-religious though). And even though I don't agree with the money spending of my selected party, I still vote for them because to me they bring change. They have some good ideas and I hope some of those ideas will be for the better. The conservative party is all about *not* taking risks and not changing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for sharing your personal experience! I think participating in a slash fandom probably impacts people in many different ways. I've heard people say it opened their eyes (and minds) to issues surrounding homosexuality, though no one's really commented on that here. You make a good point that slash is not the same as RL homosexual relationships, something many of us grit our teeth over when reading certain genres of fic...

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Followed you here from either quickquote or daily snitch - can't remember.

I'm probably a very idiosyncratic minority in that I'm a) liberal to the point of pinkoism, b) fully support gay rights and gay marriage, c) don't think gay sex is "icky" but d) am not a slasher.

I prefer to write and read het for the same reason I prefer spinach salad to coleslaw - it's a matter of taste. Slash just doesn't do anything for me. (And the attitudes of many slash fans grate on my nerves, but that's another rant.) Well-written fictional gay relationships in the context of a good story and plot I will read and like, but pure slash for the sake of slash, no.

I don't feel as if I have to like slash just because I'm liberal and pro-gay rights. I'm unconventional that way, I guess...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

A liberal non-slasher! *grins* Have people actually told you you're a bad liberal fangirl because you don't read or write slash?

Good point!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

To me, the analogy is still incomplete because even though the sex is written in a titillating way, the vast majority of fics with rape/non-con/incest still portray them as immoral, which is not the case with homosexuality and slash.

*nods* That's a great point, and I hadn't thought of that before. You're right that the incest/rape/non-con-fic analogy breaks down for that reason. I can only imagine that a person who wrote slash fic with the underlying theme of homosexuality being immoral would be flamed into oblivion!

Rightfully so, in my very unbiased opinion... :-P

[chuffing.livejournal.com]

I think slashers are more liberal minded socially, but not necessarily politically liberal. I am a staunch Republican on issues of economics, schooling, and whatnot yet I am ashamed of what my party is doing to social issues and religious issues that, frankly, are no concern of theirs to play around with. Our government is and always has disregarded its own Constitution unless the mass of Christians stand to benefit from it. They insist that we can't discriminate on the basis of religion, but they use their religious beliefs against homosexuality or abortion against the general populace and place restrictions on what one can legally do in their own home or who one can love. Personally, I would never have an abortion, but I fail to see how I have any say over another woman's choices or body. Also, considering that 9 out of 10 of my friends is a young gay Republican and I am bi, I don't see how the government has any say over what we do or don't do maritally, economically, what have you. As long as everyone pays their taxes we are all supposedly equal. America is a contradiction. They open their arms wide to the world at large, but they have entirely too many stipulations that one must conform to to be accepted.

I do feel like a minority amongst Americans, but not overall. Most of my opinions are not the American norm. Americans hold a sanctity to marriage that really to me is silly because it has a religious basis. Christianity is what influences our laws regarding gay marriage, abortion, or even divorce laws. For example, my ex insisted that being a Pagan pornographer who engages in affairs Yves Montand would be proud of was a bad thing because he was raised by Christian democrats. I was raised by well-off, highly educated Republican former hippies. Yeah, weird huh? In my family, there were no apologies, no excuses. Things were just a certain way. You were liberal with drink or umm stuff, liberal with love and/or sex, liberal with opinions, but conservative with your money or you'd go bankrupt before you knew it and then who would pay for all your liberalities? I think it all boils down to education and awareness of the differences in everyone. To me, art is not reality if it doesn't include all facets of humanity and it's indiscretions. Sex is an open field for anyone not frightened by convention and should be portrayed as such in literature, painting, and music. Did this make any sense? I have a tendency to confuse most people. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

They insist that we can't discriminate on the basis of religion, but they use their religious beliefs against homosexuality or abortion against the general populace and place restrictions on what one can legally do in their own home or who one can love.

That one makes me particularly crazy! A few years ago, one Republican senate candidate (can't remember who) said that while the Constitution guaranteed freedom of religion, it didn't guarantee freedom from religion. Hence, he concluded, atheists had no claim that their rights were being violated...

As for the rest of it, I got a little lost! :-P You had a lot to say, it seems! You seem to fit into that elusive "liberal conservative" category, though.

[wivern.livejournal.com]

I'm in Australia so my perspective is going to be affected by that.

When I first found slash it was original Trek K/S and I thought it was amusing but it didn't grab me. We are talking 20 odd years ago when I was at Uni and most of my male friends were gay. I was also extremely conservative politiclly in those days. I should probably add that for me 'politcally' means economy, foreign policy, welfare, education etc... not people's sexual lives.

As time has passed I have become less conservative but I'd also say that the right wing party here (the Liberals) has got much, MUCH, more conservative.... hell even the leftish wing party has. It's sad really.

In Australia 'liberal' seems to have a differnet conotation to that which it has in America where it seems to be a dirty word in many circles, an attitude I find incomprehensible. Here there are small 'l' liberals who are progressive and open to change and there are large 'l' Liberals who are the conservative party/supports. Ironic isn't it? The right wing, conservative party here are the Liberals. *shakes head*

Any way, about slash, I find it amazing that anyone could be anti gay but enjoy slash. I suppose the closest analogy for me is rape fic - but as someone else pointed out rape fic, at least that writen by fans, isn't showing it in a positive light so the analogy is imperfect.

I'd say slashers tend to be socially and culturally open, whether we are MORE open than other groups is hard to say. I'm not in many other groups and my friends are all fairly open even the couple who are died-in-the-wool economic rationalists.

It's an interesting question. I also agree that it depends on the fandom. I'm primarilly a Q/O gal these days though I used to be into Professionals and I dabble in SG. These fandoms seem to have a reasonably homogeonous membership and seem to be 'liberal' in general. BTW I'd contest the person who said '18 to 30ish' many of us are well into our 40s. *g*

And I'd say that at least in Aus the older folk tend to be more 'liberal' than many of the younger... in RL anyway. I am constantly amazed at the conservatism of some, indeed many, of the younger people I meet. And I would have said I was one of the more conservative of my generation. Perhaps it's just the circles I move in but I don't know.

[gaycrow.livejournal.com]

I came here via Quick Quote, and was very interested to read your reply, as I'm Australian too, well over 40, and agree pretty much with everything you have to say.

I'm so disappointed that the Labor party has decided to go with the Liberals and vote against gay marriage - what choice does that give us voters?

I'm a "conservative" slasher, but support gay rights - very much so. I do feel as if I'm in a minority on LJ - most people seem to be much more left-wing than me.

I've also noticed that my children are more conservative than I am, which is strange - maybe I've become a little more mellow with age?

This whole thread is very interesting, and I've enjoyed reading it very much. Thanks emmagrant01 for starting it. :)

[drworm.livejournal.com]

I'm also curious to hear from people who don't support gay rights and believe homosexuality is immoral, yet who read and/or write slash. I know you're out there! I'd love to hear what you think!

Well, you're the first. Most people just want to tell me that I can't possibly like, write, or read what I do because I'm not a liberal Democrat.

Oh, and yes... I do tend to feel like a minority in fandom. And I often feel like I'm being attacked or brushed aside as a joke. "Republicans for Voldemort?" Yes, actually, that isa little offensive. If you don't think being called 'evil' more than once a week is a bit outrageous, then you can be the one who goes through it.

I don't support gay rights. I don't support any particular minority rights. I don't support legalizing gay marriage, but I don't support changing the Constitution in order to do something so frivolous as ban gays from marrying. In fact, marriage has no reason to rest in the hands of our ever-sprawling government. Does it? C'mon, give me one good reason why you should have to get the government's permission to marry.

Being conservative doesn't mean that you want to control other people's lives. It doesn't mean that you want to oppress minorities and exterminate the homeless. It doesn't mean that you're rich or that you favor the rich. In the US, being conservative has more to do with the issue of "government control." How much control should government have over business? Over taxation? How much bureaucratic nonsense does the average citizen have to put up with? How much welfare is too much? How much personal accountability is reasonable?

Granted, the Republicans that have been in office lately have been turning their backs on a lot of what being a conservative actually is. Oh, what makes it into the news is all this bullshit about religion and the war on drugs and fighting against pornography and so suddenly the connotation is of "prude?" Uptight, unfair, war-mongering, and mean, mean, mean!

I'm a Libertarian. No, we aren't a joke party. We're the third largest party in the US (fuck you, Ralph Nader) and, trust me, we're only going to get bigger. And what is the Libertarian party about? Less government control. Less government interference. Heck, you know what I want government to be responsible for? Defense and law. Use the government to secure the country we have, prosecute the people interfering with others' personal rights, and take the rest of the day off. This country has lost sight of the fact that government is not a force separate from the people, acting independently... it's an entity that we have given authority to. And we can take that authority away.

When you toss the Libertarian coin, you tend to come up on the side of Republicans and conservatives more often than not. And even on issues where we agree with Democrats, we disagree with their means to an end. Why make another law when the right to decide shouldn't lie with the government in the first place? Frankly, I tend to find Democrats to be overly whiny, ignorant, and short-sighted. They find me 'evil.' That's politics.

And, oddly enough, politics have absolutely nothing to do with fandom or slash. I always wonder about people who try to make our much-belabored sexual fantasies into a crusade... must they suck the fun out of everything people like?

[vichan.livejournal.com]

I was listening to someone from the Libertarian party on the radio a couple of weeks ago. Honestly, what they said really made sense to me. What I got out of it was they seemed to want to take the Constitution word for word - which is something I definitely agree with. (What's the point of having our rights based on something that is only interpreted how we WANT to hear it?)

Tell me if I'm entirely off the mark.

... must they suck the fun out of everything people like?
*snerk* M'dear, I love you.