"Gotten" in the US editions of the HP books

[emmagrant01]

In a private conversation about Brit-picking, a friend of mine told me that she'd seen the word "gotten" in her (American) copy of HPSS. I have the PDFs of the US versions of all the books, so I thought I'd do a search on "gotten" and see what I found.

It turns out that there are 20 occurrences of the word "gotten" in SS, two of them in dialogue (one said by Ron and one by Hermione). I also have the British editions of the books, and in them each of these is "got". So this was clearly a change made by the American editors, possibly because it made the text "sound right" to American readers.

I extracted all of the examples in SS and they are posted below. I included chapter numbers but not page numbers, since those vary so much.

20 occurrences in Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone:

It looked as though Dudley had gotten the new computer he wanted, not to mention the second television and the racing bike. [Ch 2]

The only thing Harry liked about his own appearance was a very thin scar on his forehead that was shaped like a bolt of lightning. He had had it as long as he could remember, and the first question he could ever remember asking his Aunt Petunia was how he had gotten it. [Ch 2]

Next morning, however, he had gotten up to find his hair exactly as it had been before Aunt Petunia had sheared it off. [Ch 2]

On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible trouble for being found on the roof of the school kitchens. [Ch 2]

Harry recognized him at once from the card he'd gotten out of the Chocolate Frog on the train. [Ch 7]

Albus Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. He was beaming at the students, his arms opened wide, as if nothing could have pleased him more than to see them all there. [Ch 7]

The pain had gone as quickly as it had come. Harder to shake off was the feeling Harry had gotten from the teacher's look -- a feeling that he didn't like Harry at all. [Ch 7]

Just then, the mail arrived. Harry had gotten used to this by now, but it had given him a bit of a shock on the first morning, when about a hundred owls had suddenly streamed into the Great Hall during breakfast, circling the tables until they saw their owners, and dropping letters and packages onto their laps. [Ch 8]

At the start-of-term banquet, Harry had gotten the idea that Professor Snape disliked him. By the end of the first Potions lesson, he knew he'd been wrong. [Ch 8]

At breakfast on Thursday she bored them all stupid with flying tips she'd gotten out of a library book called Quidditch Through the Ages. [Ch 9]

"We should have gotten more than ten points," Ron grumbled. [Ch 10]

He didn't know how he'd have gotten through all his homework without her, what with all the last-minute Quidditch practice Wood was making them do. [Ch 11]

"I've heard of those," he said in a hushed voice, dropping the box of Every Flavor Beans he'd gotten from Hermione. "If that's what I think it is -- they're really rare, and really valuable." [Ch 12]

Percy Weasley stuck his head through the door, looking disapproving. He had clearly gotten halfway through unwrapping his presents as he, too, carried a lumpy sweater over his arm, which Fred seized. [Ch 12]

Then, during one particularly wet and muddy practice session, Wood gave the team a bit of bad news. He'd just gotten very angry with the Weasleys, who kept dive-bombing each other and pretending to fall off their brooms. [Ch 13]

Hermione jumped to her feet. She hadn't looked so excited since they'd gotten back the marks for their very first piece of homework. [Ch 13]

Little did Harry know that Ron and Hermione had been secretly practicing the Leg-Locker Curse. They'd gotten the idea from Malfoy using it on Neville, and were ready to use it on Snape if he showed any sign of wanting to hurt Harry. [Ch 13]

"What am I studying for? Are you crazy? You realize we need to pass these exams to get into the second year? They're very important, I should have started studying a month ago, I don't know what's gotten into me...." [Ch 14]

Filch was already there -- and so was Malfoy. Harry had also forgotten that Malfoy had gotten a detention, too. [Ch 15]

It winked and put the Stone back in its pocket -- and as it did so, Harry felt something heavy drop into his real pocket. Somehow -- incredibly -- he'd gotten the Stone. [Ch 17]

The number of occurrences was lower in the other books, but doesn't really seem to follow a pattern:

COS: 0 occurrences
POA: 9 occurrences (3 in dialogue)
GOF: 11 occurrences (3 in dialogue)
OOTP: 0 occurrences
HBP: 1 occurrence

Interesting. :-)

ETA: Thanks to dorrie6 for this interesting link: American Pie: American/British English Translation, and to atdelphi for the link to this list of all the differences between PS (UK) and SS(US), including many things I didn't know were different. :-P

Comments

[ktoth04.livejournal.com]

so is gotten improper english or something?

(forgive the engineering major the silly question)

[thalia]

British English doesn't use "gotten"--just "got." In U.S. English it's proper.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It's apparently improper British English, but it's proper American English, which has caused some consternation in fandom when American fanfic writers use it. ;-)

[thalia]

And that's why I have the U.K. versions of the books--to me, Ron saying "gotten" is just plain wrong. I'm glad they've tended to make fewer changes in the more recent books, but I wish they'd just leave them alone entirely.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I don't want to get into that issue, but what this says to me is that there's no reason to give shit to American writers who've only read the US versions for using "gotten". It's in our versions of the books, and as other comments here attest, there are plenty of well-educated Americans who have no clue that's not BE. :-)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, the lack of Americanizing is why I don't understand a frikkin word Ron Weasley says past Book Four.

[thalia]

Also, that icon is hilarious.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know -- I love that one!

[fiona-fawkes.livejournal.com]

Things that make you go hmmmmm.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Indeed. :-)

[frances-veritas.livejournal.com]

Also, J.K. Rowling is confusing movie canon with her own book canon. In HBP, she mentions that one time Hermione punched Draco back in third year. But she slapped him, not punched. Yup. *nods*

:-P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't noticed! Of course, I get canon and fanon confused all the time these days. :-P

[ciel-vert.livejournal.com]

Very interesting. I actually prefer "got" for some reason, even though I'm American. It just sounds better to me.

I've also noticed the lessening of the "American-picking" in the books as the series has gone on. In SS they were "boogers" but we had "bogeys" by the time we got to HBP, and at some point "Mom" stayed "Mum".

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's lessened, for whatever reason. I think the editors realized as time went on that there wasn't really as much a need to change it so much as they'd first thought. Of course, they thought the first book would only be read by children.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

Since the Canadian version is the same as the British, I've always found it a bit odd (and in cases like this, oddly thorough) that they bother to Americanize a book with a British setting by a British author. Maybe it's that British kid-lit is more popular here - I grew up reading Enid Blyton and E. Nesbitt and the like and puzzled my way through figuring out why children at boarding schools had torches and just what boxing someone's ears meant, and along the way developed a better ear for the differences between U.K. and North American grammar.

Mind, I totally agree that no one should be jumped on for something as small as using "gotten", especially when it's actually in the U.S. books - but I think it's completely ridiculous that the publishers think American kids aren't smart enough to deal with a few differences in diction and syntax.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that no one should be jumped on for something as small as using "gotten", especially when it's actually in the U.S. books

And that's pretty much my point. :-)

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

not only that... half the time the editors are using it wrong...

i mean, 'had gotten' is past perfect, innit? it's like, refering to a past event BEFORE the main past event...

or, do people switch back and forth to break the monotony? because she uses simple past alot, too.


like this sentence:
Just then, the mail arrived. Harry had gotten used to this by now, but it had given him a bit of a shock on the first morning, when about a hundred owls had suddenly streamed into the Great Hall during breakfast, circling the tables until they saw their owners, and dropping letters and packages onto their laps. [Ch 8]

I understand the perfect past when refering to the first morning he'd been shocked... but shouldn't the second sentence be simple past like the first????

same with this one:

Albus Dumbledore had gotten to his feet. He was beaming at the students, his arms opened wide, as if nothing could have pleased him more than to see them all there. [Ch 7]

the narrative is in the past, technically, but where IN that past... that's the past that's happening last and utmost. Dumbledore hadn't got to his feet BEFORE that moment; he got to his feet AT THAT MOMENT -- the moment of the past in which the narrative is IN. why the past perfect there?

the sad thing is, i KNOW i never paid attention to such things UNTIL i started learning German and Dutch. meh.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

AFAIK, the way "gotten" is used in the sentences above is correct American English. And the way the past tenses are used tells you when the action occurred, just as it's supposed to.

but shouldn't the second sentence be simple past like the first????

The second part of the second sentence is still referring to what happened the first time the mail arrived and surprised Harry, so it wouldn't make sense for it to be simple past. It doesn't switch back to the present moment until the next sentence (which I didn't include).

Dumbledore hadn't got to his feet BEFORE that moment; he got to his feet AT THAT MOMENT

Actually I read that as Harry looked up and noticed that Dumbledore was standing, so he must have just gotten to his feet. He was already standing when Harry looked; hence it was in the past.

[verdenia.livejournal.com]

re: "gotten"

Evidence is so fascinating. :P

[daddybear716.livejournal.com]

Also depends on which print run you have. First runs have errors in grammar and punctuation that just weren't caught in time to be fixed. Not that I would know anything specifically about that for these books ;-)

[aoi-shu.livejournal.com]

ehh.. ihave one US edition..after seing Sourcerers Stone in it, I took a pencil and started correcting^^;
it hURTS.. to see..
Don't they want kids to become inquisitive, curious, learn somethign NEW?
*sigh*
Gotten - honestly, first thought was about silly japanese action cartoon^^; (there was another chara called Trunks^^;too)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

after seing Sourcerers Stone in it, I took a pencil and started correcting

Funny -- to me it is correct. But then, I'm an American, so what do I know?

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

IDK -- to me, if "gotten" is used in narrative, I don't mind. But dialogue? I cringe. Because while I understand about American English vs. British English, these are British boys. They would not say "gotten", because they do not speak American English, the efforts of American editors notwithstanding. If I'm reading a story and encounter "gotten" in narrative, it's no big -- it's not wrong. But "gotten" in dialogue, IMO, causes the writing to lose authenticity. Because even though American English is just as "right" as British English, British boys do not speak American English. It's like writing a Frenchman with a Spanish accent. :P

I don't think Britpicking your narrative or dialogue is required for a story to be good, but I consider the American English versions of the books translations. And, well, things are inevitably lost in translation. No, British English isn't 'better' than American English, but the HP books are set in England -- to me, failure to Britpick (at least the dialogue) is failure to research. I don't really give a shit about stylistic considerations such as capitalising Apparate (or, indeed, spelling "colour"), but if Ron is 'yelling', "yo, boys, I've gotten an A on my NEWT, now I can graduate!!1" whilst capering atop a 'trash can' and wearing 'black pants' that aren't underwear, I'm clicking the back button. Not because American English sucks, but because I think it sucks all the authenticity from a story set in England. It's only fanfic, blah blah, which is why, you know. We're all allowed to read whatever we like. Right?

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

See, in my opinion use of "gotten" is completely different than saying things like "graduate." "Gotten" is the difference in grammar and word usage you would find when reading something written by a person who speaks and writes American English, just as you would see different grammar and usage if you were reading something in French or German. This is plainly demonstrated in the way that the early HP books were "translated" in to American English for American readers, just as they are translated into French, German, etc., and if you are translating something, you translate the whole thing, not just the narrative. Now, I tend to avoid "gotten" in HP fic, but not because I think it would be improper for me, as a speaker/writer of American English, to use it. Being immersed in fandom the way I am, I've come to enjoy the challenge of making the characters sound as British as I can. But I don't think it's necessary for or indicative of good writing, as is commonly asserted in HP fandom.

The "graduation" issue has nothing at all do to with grammar, and is entirely about proper characterization and authenticity to the location. Graduation is an event that British students do not experience. It's a cultural issue, not a language issue.

I understand why people object to both (whether or not I always agree). I just think they are completely different issues.

[melusin-79.livejournal.com]

Just thought I'd point out, they're actually set in Scotland. And, yes, as a Brit, 'Gotten' gets on my tits, simply because it is not in our vocabulary any more than 'Mom' is. As a beta, I won't allow it. And, we don't graduate from school... etc etc etc

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I am very happy you posted this.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

:-D

[earth-magic.livejournal.com]

You realise now I shall have to get out my British version and check these *grins* Lovely distraction therapy

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

So these are all... oh crap, I know the term in French. Plus parfait? They're all in the past-perfect tense? So, uh, the past BEFORE the past. Which is interesting. I suppose you could say "It looked like Dudley had got the television" but yeah, that sounds REALLY wrong to me. On the other hand, if you change "got" to "receive" (same meaning), you'd just use the simple past form with 'had' in front of it. "Dudley had received the television." 'Got' is a pretty irregular verb though. 'Gotten' SOUNDS better to me.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It sounds better to me too, but that's partly because I know it's grammatically correct, heh. ;-)

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

HEE!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

;-)

[marksykins.livejournal.com]

Every time I see one of these posts, I think back to this article I read a few years ago where a bunch of linguists got together and decided that the American rule of using z to spell words was much more linguistically efficient and evolutionarily dynamic than the British counterpart (e.g., realize vs. realise). I really don't care very much how things are spelled in the books or fanfiction (there are better ways to make things sound British than adding a u to color), but I did find it amusing at the time because I read that just about when I was getting into HP fanfic and wading through Britpicking for the first time.

[emila-wan.livejournal.com]

Changing "colour" to "color" I can understand. But I think it's absolutely the most asinine thing EVAR for the editors to have Ron say "gotten" and then leave in words like "trainers," "balaclava," and "knickers." Either translate the whole text into American (and consequently sap it of its charm IMNSHO) or leave it be.

And don't get me started on changing "Philosopher's Stone" to "Sorceror's Stone" ...

*GRR*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It's after midnight, so instead of restating my thoughts, here's a thread with some info on that subject that you may not have seen before: http://emmagrant01.livejournal.com/354409.html?thread=12751209#t12751209

[pensnest]

Interesting that your previous fandom was Star Wars. Mine was Star Trek (TNG), and similar in its 'international' setting - while both came out of the USA, neither had the specific references that characterise Buffy, HP, etc. It never occurred to me to try to 'write American', because it simply wasn't an important aspect of 'getting the canon right'. Now, though, I'm addicted to popslash, and doing my best to get the American idiom right. It is *amazing* how many subtle traps there are for a transatlantic writer!

Still, it's absurd (and rude) to assume that someone won't be able to write a good HP story if that someone isn't British. A good story is a good story. It is *harder* when you're not from the background culture of the canon, because you have to learn about stuff instead of knowing it because it's home territory, but then, that's what beta readers are for. And whingeing about somebody writing 'gotten' (a word I adore, and am glad to be able to use nowadays!) or spelling things without the 'u' is just silly. I approve of cultural nitpicking, but it really shouldn't matter if somebody uses the spelling of her 'native language' instead of painstakingly being British in all things.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It is *amazing* how many subtle traps there are for a transatlantic writer!

I know -- it's insane, really. Even after years of trying to get better at the subtleties of BE, I learn new things every day. Like apparently, the way commas are used in AE and BE is different. I learned that just this morning. :-P