Picky much?

[emmagrant01]

I was looking through some posts on fanficrants for sheer entertainment this morning, because it's kind of fun to see what people in multiple fandoms like to complain about. Much of it isn't dependent on the fandom at all, which is interesting. Some of it makes me want to roll my eyes, and then there are posts that make me go o_0.

A British reader read a fic by an American author, and thought the fic was wonderful in nearly every way -- it had great dialogue and characterization, was clearly well-researched, and was even Brit-picked. But then the entire reading experience was ruined for her by an instance of the word "gotten".

Requisite stuff: Yes, "gotten" is the correct past participle for the verb "to get" in standard American English. Yes, it disappeared from British English a long time ago, despite the fact that other past participles of the same form, like "forgotten", did not. (Though some Brits do claim to hear "gotten" used in conversation.) Yes, many speakers of non-American English think it sounds weird. And yes, it's something that the vast majority of Americans do not know is a difference, and why would they? Hell, I didn't know until a month ago that Brits don't say "silverware" or "foyer", and I've actually spent several years trying to make the language in my fics more British. This, even though I strongly disagree that a good HP fic has to sound like it was written by a Brit.

My point is not to bring up the whole language issue again, but the fact that the presence of a single word was enough to ruin an otherwise great fic for this particular reader. Don't get me wrong -- you can be as picky as you want about reading fic, and we all have our pet peeves. If I read more than a handful of euphemisms like "blond Slytherin" in a fic, it has to be a pretty intriguing story to keep me from hitting the back button. But I really can't imagine loving everything about a fic and then having it "ruined" for me by a couple of euphemisms. Of course, people who use euphemisms tend to have other writing issues as well, so it's kind of hard for me to imagine a fic where that would be the only thing that would bother me.

There's always going to be something, though. No one's writing style is going to please everyone, and that's okay. But one word? And it pissed her off so much she went over to that comm to rant about it? Fannish entitlement issues, I'm thinking.

Comments

[liriaen.livejournal.com]

Of course we all have our pet peeves, and everybody is entitled to their's. That level of nitpickery seems a bit sad, though.

(And what about us poor benighted creatures whose first language isn't English, neither BE nor AE: most of us learn BE in school and uni, but 90% of our pop cultural references are AE - we invariably end up with a mishmash and either need a very thorough britpicker (should we swing that way) or gracious betas (at the very least), and yet a "gotten" might slip through.)

No reason to commit seppuku, methinks.

[conuly]

Theirs. Possessive pronouns don't take apostrophes.

I do agree, though, that this level of nitpicking is a bit absurd.

[sagcat.livejournal.com]

I don't think the poster was bothered so much by the use of the Americanism than she was by the fact that she could tell the writer was American instead of British.

And wow - I just wrote a nice little rant about anti-American British prejudice and decided to erase it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about that. It did seem a bit like she didn't mind if Americans wrote fanfic, as long as she couldn't tell if they were Americans. There's a big difference between having Hermione try out for cheerleading in your fic and not getting the nuance of the language right. And for many people, getting the nuances right isn't their goal anyway.

[karadin.livejournal.com]

reminds me of the time I wrote a hobbitfic, and the commenter liked everything about it, characterization, plot, the style, and yet, when Frodo won a prize at the Free Fair, he received a ribbon, and according to the poster it should have been a rosette. So they no longer could rec it for archiving. I asked my spouse, who is British about it and he said ribbon would have been fine. *shrug*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I've gotten comments from Brits about using words in fics that I have heard Brits say, so yeah. I once got a comment from someone complaining that an American character in one of my fics said "ass". I was a bit WTF at that!

[melody2tds.livejournal.com]

stupid LJ signed me out. couldyou delete the first one, Emma?

I'm American, technically. I could even be considered southern, being from Florida, and we all know how strange Southern-American english dialect can be, sometimes.
However, I don't believe I would use 'gotten' in any format, even if it is technically proper. I've heard it used, very rarely, but when I have I usually gave whoever was using it an odd look. It just sounds off.
"I haven't gotten my report back from the professor yet." /vs/ "I haven't recieved my report back from the professor, yet." Yes, it's technically correct both times, but to me, the first sounds almost lazy. As if the person couldn't be bothered to come up with a more proper sounding word.
It could just be my 'technically American' background. I was taught to speak by a brit, and to this day, I still have a slight brit accent sometimes. No way to tell, really.
I doubt I would make a big deal about seeing it in a fic. I might not even notice it in text, the way I do when it's spoken. I just wanted to point out that it's not an entirely american/vs/brit thing, I think it's more an expanded vocabulary thing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Anon comments are screened, so no one sees it but me anyway.

The thing about "gotten" is that it is correct American English. It's not slang, like "y'all" or "youse". I've lived on the east coast, west coast, and now in the middle of this country, and I never noticed any weird reaction to anyone using that word. You hear it on TV and in movies all the time, and read it in books. It doesn't seem to be particularly regional.

"I haven't gotten my report back from the professor yet." /vs/ "I haven't recieved my report back from the professor, yet."

And to me, the second one sounds awkward, like someone is trying to sound upper class but doesn't know quite how to do it. ;-)

[daisy-chan.livejournal.com]

lol. Well, I do think for most of us, our pet peeves are warnings for bad or mediocre fic writing in general. Just from past experience; if Goyle turns to Draco and calls him 'Dray' or Ron calls Harry 'Har,' then I'm probably heading for the close button ANYWAY. XD

[kawaiililme.livejournal.com]

I HATE that! I also get a little nauseous every time Hermione is called "HERM" and it isn't meant to piss her off. GAH.

[kawaiililme.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I can be annoyed with this woman because for me, 5+ misspellings have me running for the hills. As for "gotten"...I don't know that I use it that often in speech and I definitely don't use it in writing. It sounds funny to me, just as melody2tds mentioned.

On the other hand, for a good plot and great characters I'll ignore a great many mistakes.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I guess that's what I'm a bit o_0 at. It was a great fic, and she liked everything except the choice of conjugation for one verb. :-P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I can imagine a few single words that would make me hit the back button -- racist or sexist slurs, for example. But disliking the way someone conjugates a verb seems a little extreme to me. :-P

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

I found that entry, and am wondering...what historical period. From my understanding, gotten was used in Britain and the usage died out like...centuries ago, but is still used in some regional dialects. Admittedly, I don't particularily like the word "gotten" and use it rarely, though I don't think it would make me rant about a fic. (though cum instead of come on the other hand...)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I despise "cum", but it's not enough to throw me out of a fic. Of course, it's usually present along with other things I find annoying, like weird descriptions of male genitalia and a distinct lack of compelling characterization. It tends to be a combination of factors that makes me stop reading a fic.

[asylumangel.livejournal.com]

If it's one word. Who cares that's a bit much. Is that saying that our great literary works may not have one awkward word or two?

Pish posh.

That's a bit too much.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[luci0logy.livejournal.com]

I remember having a discussion with silentauror about 'gotten', and whilst I (grudgingly, I'll admit) accepted her point that the word is technically correct, I know that we just don't say it. It does seem a trifle ridiculous that one instance of 'gotten' could ruin the whole fic experience.

Re foyer: it's only in relation to our homes that we don't use it - we say hall, entrance hall or in the case of large houses, reception hall. I would associate foyer with commercial buildings such as hotels or council offices.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That's interesting, because I think I've only heard foyer used in the context of a private home here. In a hotel or commercial building, we usually say "lobby".

See what I mean? The differences are really quite nuanced.

[dartmouthtongue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's just ridiculous. I mean, be as pedantic as you want in the privacy of your own nit picking, eternally unsatisfied little head, but to announce it on fanficrants as if the writer is the one that's wrong is just sad and pathetic.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I agree, absolutely. I could care less what people hate about fic privately, but it gave me a good laugh that this person posted about it on that comm, where the assumption is that you're posting about something that the majority of readers would agree with. And hell, maybe they do for all I know. But it still seems bizarre to me. :-P

[lauramcewan.livejournal.com]

If I read more than a handful of euphemisms like "blond Slytherin" in a fic, it has to be a pretty intriguing story to keep me from hitting the back button.

Yes. Egregious usage of "blond detective" and "brunet detective" are about to drive me out of my tree. If their hair color isn't endemic to what they're writing about, WHY SAY IT?? (And I'm probably guilty of it in TPM stories, *cough*) But for pity's sake, we KNOW who they are. Describing Hutch in sunlight and how much Starsky loves the light on blond hair? FINE. That's great. Fantastic, even. But in just general terms, Hutch being blond means NOTHING and shouldn't be there.

/personal peeve

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That is absolutely my biggest pet peeve in fanfic. :-P

[puffskeinpixie.livejournal.com]

I'm british and sometimes americanisms do annoy me, but I think they only really bother me when the characters sound american, I'm not too bothered if the narration or descriptions sound american. I think that's because to me being british is a big part of the characters' personalities (especially characters like Dumbledore and Draco, who are a particular type of british person) and for them to say things that sound very american just seems wrong. It doesn't fit in with their overall character and the way they've been brought up and the influences they would have had.
I know that sounds a bit picky, but I would like to add that american words or phrases wouldn't stop me reading a story I was really enjoying. To some extent, I think some american phrases might make their way into Hogwarts anyway, since the muggleborns in the school would have been influenced by the american media in the first eleven years of their lives and during the holidays. I use words like "guys", and I'm not american. :-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

There are things like that in the HP books themselves that sometimes make me go o_0. The separation of Muggles and Wizards seems to be oddly forced at times, for example. On the one hand, you have people like Arthur Weasley (who doesn't understand what electricity is), yet there are clearly a lot of wizards who live quietly in the Muggle world. It doesn't make sense that such a small secretive society could survive without understanding the larger world they're hidden in. So of course there would be a lot of Muggle influence, American and otherwise.

[oneminutemovies.livejournal.com]

It depends on the one word. I don't think I'd abandon a story for an
Americanism but I think I have when Draco called somebody "dude," just for that one word. That's a characterization thing, unless you've had him spend time in another environment than he usually inhabits, and let readers know that.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm assuming that wasn't a crack fic? ;-)

I hate the word "cum" more than almost anything else in fanfic, but it wouldn't be enough on its own to make me turn back. But in general, it's not just the presence of "cum" -- that word usually comes with an entire package of things I consider mediocre writing, like purple prose and cringeworthy euphemisms for male genitalia. The idea that one single word could set someone off a fic strikes me as odd, but YMMV of course.

[rolling-scone.livejournal.com]

I have a peeve like that. If somebody spells summary 'summery' I can't read the fic. It's like sentencing it to death in my opinion.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

And now I'm imagining a beautiful summery day, with a slight breeze and warm sunshine... ;-)

[charlotteschaos.livejournal.com]

Has it escaped everyone's notice that Scholastic spends a lot of money translating stories from BE to AE? I think Britpicking is fine if that's what you want to do, but it's a little silly to expect it.

There are so many fanfiction conventions that make me giggle and shake my head. I've had people rant to me about one word in a fic that didn't work for them and sent them for the back button. I tend to point out that I find them ridiculous.

I just don't understand that reading strategy. Why read fanfic-- which is provided for free by ameteurs-- looking for the perfection of profic? A lot of profic even falls short. It's just dorky. Some people need lives.

[conuly]

They don't do that so much with HP anymore, though.

[tildathebuilder.livejournal.com]

Heh, I can hardly talk here, because I'm a Brit and my standard of written English is not great - no-one learned me proper like (that's a bit of Somerset for you!)

I can get over most things in a HP fic if on the whole it has been well written and well brit-picked. The one word that makes me cringe every time is "sidewalk". As soon as it's used I'm immediately transported from London (or where ever) to downtown New York!

Since I have been in fandom, I have been amazed at the high standard of English in fics where it is the writer's second language.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

And that was one of those things I didn't learn until I'd been in fandom for a couple of years. I still don't get things correct, even though I try. I guess the idea that someone would refuse to read my fic because I'd gotten something subtle wrong that I was clueless about is more than a little frustrating. :-P

[lauramcewan.livejournal.com]

silverware? What do they use instead?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Cutlery. Who knew?

That makes me think of a large set of knives, but there you go.

[mizbean.livejournal.com]

Okay, I found the original rant. Here's my first thought: if the fic was otherwise so wonderful, why didn't the ranter just politely point out the error to the writer. I've had people point out spelling or brit-picking errors I've made, and I've always been grateful to them, because things do get missed. And that goes to my second point, errors do happen. I work in publishing. It's amazing how many errors and typos get published, even with professional proofreaders on staff.

You know, the beta or brit-picker may have even missed it, or the word was edited in after the fic was beta-ed. The author may not have known 'gotten' is a no-no, or may have forgotten. I doubt it was done purposefully, which goes back to my first point. Why didn't the ranter point it out politely? If the author pointedly refused, than I think this person's issue might be rant-worthy.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. The fact that it merited a rant is what made me go WTF about it. I couldn't help but think about myself, you know? I try very hard, but I'm not British, and no one is ever going to think I am. The fact that someone would have that reaction to my fic, enough to go post a rant about it, is more than a little annoying. People are entitled to their opinions, of course, but geez!

[mereol.livejournal.com]

personally, i think an awful lot of props are in order for us poor ignorant american souls who a. write fanfic b. ATTEMPT to briticize it. we don't have to, but an awful lot of us make the effort.

there's just too much prejudice and animosity in the world. kumbaya.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, absolutely. And I think most of us try because we genuinely want our fics to be set in the canon universe as much as possible. We recognize that the characters are British, and we try really hard to understand the nuances of that. But when people bitch about it at this level, it kind of makes me wonder if the point is to tell American writers they shouldn't be writing HP fanfic at all, you know?

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

It really does seem overly picky. I mean, we all have our issues, but if you're going to let one word ruin a fic for you, you're just not going to enjoy very much. :p

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL, true. People who are that picky are going to have a hard time having fun in fandom. :-P

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Interestingly. Someone mentioned this to me in a recent fic, and I didn't know WHAT the hell she was talking about. Since, as you point out, Emma, that, yes, Americans do use this and to us sad little grammar-challenged clods it is correct.

I have my peeves (yes, I also hate the use of Dray or Herm), but I can ignore these if the story is good. To me it seems a real case of refusing to see the forest for the trees. I mean, I could just as easily say that it's damn irritating for a British writer to publish in this country and have a whole bunch of those 'u's where they don't belong. Why can't you people spell the word 'color' properly? I mean, COME ON! These sorts of nitpicks are so trivial that I have to believe that there is really a hidden agenda here. We are willing to sacrifice decent storyline, decent characterization, AND a proper police procedural (which is damn hard to do), because of a SINGLE instance of a verb choice?

What's really bothering her/him?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

To me it seems a real case of refusing to see the forest for the trees.

Absolutely, and I think part of the reason that rant pissed me off so much was because there seemed to be an underlying message that a good HP fic had to seem like it was written by a British writer. I'm always struck by how possessive some Brits can be of HP, almost as if they feel like they have to defend the franchise from becoming an American thing. When I wrote LMH, I was brand new to the fandom and had NO idea that setting a fic in the US was a huge fandom taboo. I just chracged ahead, la-di-da, and was surprised when there was a bit of backlash.

Of course, I think I got the last laugh on that one. ;-)

[earth-magic.livejournal.com]

It would take an awful lot of mistakes to make me hate a story just because of Americanisms. Reading something with 'sidewalk' or even 'waffles' for breakfast in the Great Hall might make me roll my eyes, but if the story was good I wouldn't worry.

This has made me wonder about stories I've written in the past in other fandoms with American backgrounds. I don't think I ever changed things to make them more 'American'. I will have to dig some of them out and have a look.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know, I don't remember it being such an issue in the Star Wars fandom. Of course, there's an interesting mix of British and American actors in the films, so just about anything goes.

But yes, I'm far more interested in whether the story is good and the writing is solid than in a few misplaced words. :-P

[house-illrepute.livejournal.com]

maybe s/he was exaggerating to get the point across? :shrug: i dunno...

i do wonder, however, how many british star wars fanfic authors bothered to be 'american' with their writing. or (in case one would argue whether or not it's 'american' to begin with) what about Star Trek ... or Supernatural ... I read a Kyle XY fic by a brit who wrote mostly in BE. Didn't bother me... except that the fic was laaaaame to begin with.

Oh wells.

oh, the MAIN reason why i responded, however, is because i know you do the whole look-for-cute-cat-pics thing and i saw this and thought you'd want to snag it like a hangnail!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

So cute!!! Oh, I do love cat macros! That's one patient bunny. Either that, or it's about to shit itself.

[wivern.livejournal.com]

Heee. I never knew what silverware was. (Though I can assume by context usually.) And on that subject, what is flatware??

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

People use them interchangeably, though I think technically "silverware" refers to silver, while "flatware" refers to eating utensils made from other kinds of metal, like stainless steel. But hardly anyone uses real silver silverware anymore, AFAIK. I grew up eating with uber-cheap stainless steel stuff we called "silverware", though. ;-)