Picky much?

[emmagrant01]

I was looking through some posts on fanficrants for sheer entertainment this morning, because it's kind of fun to see what people in multiple fandoms like to complain about. Much of it isn't dependent on the fandom at all, which is interesting. Some of it makes me want to roll my eyes, and then there are posts that make me go o_0.

A British reader read a fic by an American author, and thought the fic was wonderful in nearly every way -- it had great dialogue and characterization, was clearly well-researched, and was even Brit-picked. But then the entire reading experience was ruined for her by an instance of the word "gotten".

Requisite stuff: Yes, "gotten" is the correct past participle for the verb "to get" in standard American English. Yes, it disappeared from British English a long time ago, despite the fact that other past participles of the same form, like "forgotten", did not. (Though some Brits do claim to hear "gotten" used in conversation.) Yes, many speakers of non-American English think it sounds weird. And yes, it's something that the vast majority of Americans do not know is a difference, and why would they? Hell, I didn't know until a month ago that Brits don't say "silverware" or "foyer", and I've actually spent several years trying to make the language in my fics more British. This, even though I strongly disagree that a good HP fic has to sound like it was written by a Brit.

My point is not to bring up the whole language issue again, but the fact that the presence of a single word was enough to ruin an otherwise great fic for this particular reader. Don't get me wrong -- you can be as picky as you want about reading fic, and we all have our pet peeves. If I read more than a handful of euphemisms like "blond Slytherin" in a fic, it has to be a pretty intriguing story to keep me from hitting the back button. But I really can't imagine loving everything about a fic and then having it "ruined" for me by a couple of euphemisms. Of course, people who use euphemisms tend to have other writing issues as well, so it's kind of hard for me to imagine a fic where that would be the only thing that would bother me.

There's always going to be something, though. No one's writing style is going to please everyone, and that's okay. But one word? And it pissed her off so much she went over to that comm to rant about it? Fannish entitlement issues, I'm thinking.

Comments

[liriaen.livejournal.com]

Of course we all have our pet peeves, and everybody is entitled to their's. That level of nitpickery seems a bit sad, though.

(And what about us poor benighted creatures whose first language isn't English, neither BE nor AE: most of us learn BE in school and uni, but 90% of our pop cultural references are AE - we invariably end up with a mishmash and either need a very thorough britpicker (should we swing that way) or gracious betas (at the very least), and yet a "gotten" might slip through.)

No reason to commit seppuku, methinks.

[conuly]

Theirs. Possessive pronouns don't take apostrophes.

I do agree, though, that this level of nitpicking is a bit absurd.

[liriaen.livejournal.com]

Thank you! *g*

[sagcat.livejournal.com]

I don't think the poster was bothered so much by the use of the Americanism than she was by the fact that she could tell the writer was American instead of British.

And wow - I just wrote a nice little rant about anti-American British prejudice and decided to erase it.

[karadin.livejournal.com]

reminds me of the time I wrote a hobbitfic, and the commenter liked everything about it, characterization, plot, the style, and yet, when Frodo won a prize at the Free Fair, he received a ribbon, and according to the poster it should have been a rosette. So they no longer could rec it for archiving. I asked my spouse, who is British about it and he said ribbon would have been fine. *shrug*

[melody2tds.livejournal.com]

stupid LJ signed me out. couldyou delete the first one, Emma?

I'm American, technically. I could even be considered southern, being from Florida, and we all know how strange Southern-American english dialect can be, sometimes.
However, I don't believe I would use 'gotten' in any format, even if it is technically proper. I've heard it used, very rarely, but when I have I usually gave whoever was using it an odd look. It just sounds off.
"I haven't gotten my report back from the professor yet." /vs/ "I haven't recieved my report back from the professor, yet." Yes, it's technically correct both times, but to me, the first sounds almost lazy. As if the person couldn't be bothered to come up with a more proper sounding word.
It could just be my 'technically American' background. I was taught to speak by a brit, and to this day, I still have a slight brit accent sometimes. No way to tell, really.
I doubt I would make a big deal about seeing it in a fic. I might not even notice it in text, the way I do when it's spoken. I just wanted to point out that it's not an entirely american/vs/brit thing, I think it's more an expanded vocabulary thing.

[daisy-chan.livejournal.com]

lol. Well, I do think for most of us, our pet peeves are warnings for bad or mediocre fic writing in general. Just from past experience; if Goyle turns to Draco and calls him 'Dray' or Ron calls Harry 'Har,' then I'm probably heading for the close button ANYWAY. XD

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think you're right about that. It did seem a bit like she didn't mind if Americans wrote fanfic, as long as she couldn't tell if they were Americans. There's a big difference between having Hermione try out for cheerleading in your fic and not getting the nuance of the language right. And for many people, getting the nuances right isn't their goal anyway.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think it's amazing that people write fanfic in a second language, because I don't think I would ever have the courage to write fic in Spanish. My Spanish is pretty atrocious, heh. So good for you!

But yes, I think that's a good point in general. When people write HP fic in languages other than English, do they have this sort of issue? What if there was an amazing Spanish fanfic that was translated into English by an American who didn't know the nuances of British English?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Were you being ironic in correcting her almost-perfect English?

[kawaiililme.livejournal.com]

I don't know if I can be annoyed with this woman because for me, 5+ misspellings have me running for the hills. As for "gotten"...I don't know that I use it that often in speech and I definitely don't use it in writing. It sounds funny to me, just as melody2tds mentioned.

On the other hand, for a good plot and great characters I'll ignore a great many mistakes.

[kawaiililme.livejournal.com]

I HATE that! I also get a little nauseous every time Hermione is called "HERM" and it isn't meant to piss her off. GAH.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Anon comments are screened, so no one sees it but me anyway.

The thing about "gotten" is that it is correct American English. It's not slang, like "y'all" or "youse". I've lived on the east coast, west coast, and now in the middle of this country, and I never noticed any weird reaction to anyone using that word. You hear it on TV and in movies all the time, and read it in books. It doesn't seem to be particularly regional.

"I haven't gotten my report back from the professor yet." /vs/ "I haven't recieved my report back from the professor, yet."

And to me, the second one sounds awkward, like someone is trying to sound upper class but doesn't know quite how to do it. ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's true. A combination of adverbs, euphemisms, and the word "Dray" will make me hit the back button, absolutely. :-P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

To be fair, I can imagine a few single words that would make me hit the back button -- racist or sexist slurs, for example. But disliking the way someone conjugates a verb seems a little extreme to me. :-P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I guess that's what I'm a bit o_0 at. It was a great fic, and she liked everything except the choice of conjugation for one verb. :-P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know, I was wondering recently if that tendency to give the characters one-syllable nicknames comes from the Buffy fandom? On the show, the characters call each other "Buff" and "Will" and "Ahn". It still annoys me a bit in Buffy fic, but it does have a basis in that canon.

[daisy-chan.livejournal.com]

Poor, Hermione. No one wants to type out your ricidulous and unfarmiliar name.

[conuly]

Somewhat :)

But also, I know she mentioned she's not a native speaker. I know that if I made a really obvious mistake in writing a language I'm *mostly* perfect in, I'd want to know sooner rather than later.

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

I found that entry, and am wondering...what historical period. From my understanding, gotten was used in Britain and the usage died out like...centuries ago, but is still used in some regional dialects. Admittedly, I don't particularily like the word "gotten" and use it rarely, though I don't think it would make me rant about a fic. (though cum instead of come on the other hand...)

[asylumangel.livejournal.com]

If it's one word. Who cares that's a bit much. Is that saying that our great literary works may not have one awkward word or two?

Pish posh.

That's a bit too much.

[luci0logy.livejournal.com]

I remember having a discussion with silentauror about 'gotten', and whilst I (grudgingly, I'll admit) accepted her point that the word is technically correct, I know that we just don't say it. It does seem a trifle ridiculous that one instance of 'gotten' could ruin the whole fic experience.

Re foyer: it's only in relation to our homes that we don't use it - we say hall, entrance hall or in the case of large houses, reception hall. I would associate foyer with commercial buildings such as hotels or council offices.

[dartmouthtongue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's just ridiculous. I mean, be as pedantic as you want in the privacy of your own nit picking, eternally unsatisfied little head, but to announce it on fanficrants as if the writer is the one that's wrong is just sad and pathetic.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That's interesting, because I think I've only heard foyer used in the context of a private home here. In a hotel or commercial building, we usually say "lobby".

See what I mean? The differences are really quite nuanced.

[lauramcewan.livejournal.com]

If I read more than a handful of euphemisms like "blond Slytherin" in a fic, it has to be a pretty intriguing story to keep me from hitting the back button.

Yes. Egregious usage of "blond detective" and "brunet detective" are about to drive me out of my tree. If their hair color isn't endemic to what they're writing about, WHY SAY IT?? (And I'm probably guilty of it in TPM stories, *cough*) But for pity's sake, we KNOW who they are. Describing Hutch in sunlight and how much Starsky loves the light on blond hair? FINE. That's great. Fantastic, even. But in just general terms, Hutch being blond means NOTHING and shouldn't be there.

/personal peeve