(no subject)

[emmagrant01]

Disclaimer: This has nothing to do with fandom. It's about something that drives me nuts about some people in RL, and while it's definitely based on recent events, it's not something any of y'all did.

Why is it that some people don't know how to listen? I'm not talking about listening to instructions or anything like that. I mean, when you're going through a bad time and just need to vent to someone, why do some people take it upon themselves to try to fix whatever your problem is or cheer you up?

I'm basically a cheerful, optimistic person, but I have my moments of frustration. When I do, I would really like to just vent about them and say, "Argh, this sucks and it's not fair!" What I do not need at that moment is a happy little Mary Sunshine saying, "Oh, cheer up! Things will work out, I just know it!"

Fuck you, Mary Sunshine. You're missing my point entirely. If I really believed that, I wouldn't need to be ranting about it, would I? When you tell me that I'm wrong to be worried and distressed, you're basically saying I'm an idiot who has no clue about the situation I'm in. Not true. I do know, and what's more, I know a hell of a lot more about it than you do. It's a complex situation with details you haven't even thought of. So fuck off.

Other people don't take the cheery route, but instead think they can fix it for you. They have an answer to your problem, no matter how bad, and it usually involves something you should have done or ought to do now that s/he would have/has done in this situation. If you argue back or try to point out how your situation is different, or that perhaps they might not have all the information, they just keep coming up with even more outlandish solutions to your problem. Often, these are things I have already tried or considered, but for one reason or another they didn't help. Individuals who do this never seem to assume I have considered these options at all, and they jump at the chance to enlighten me.

So the thing I would dearly love to say to those folks (but never do) is this: I didn't come here to ask you for advice. If I wanted you to help me fix my problem, I would've said that. What I wanted was just to vent about it, and you offering "helpful" suggestions just makes me feel worse, because what you're basically saying is that I'm so incompetent that I can't handle this situation myself and need your help. I don't need your help. Perhaps no one can really help me at this point, and I'm just struggling to find a way through this on my own. Kindly fuck off and go try to fix somebody else's problems.

So here's my point: when someone vents or rants about something to you, it is generally not a cry for help. It doesn't mean that your duty as a friend/parent/sister/lover is to try to "fix" it for them. I know you mean well, but really, it doesn't help.

You know what you can really do to help? Sit there. Listen. Nod your head. Say stuff like, "Oh, shit, that really sucks" and "Wow, I don't know what I'd do in that situation either" and "I can totally understand why you're frustrated and angry about this, because I would be too." And then let them talk some more, until they decide they've vented enough and feel better.

And that's all you need to do. Seriously.

Comments

[darthrami.livejournal.com]

I totally feel your pain.

*hugs*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Maybe I should have called this "A not-so-open letter to my mother". ;-)

[irana.livejournal.com]

*HUGS*
That drives me nuts too.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

Some people are just naturally inclined to be problem-solvers... and yes, I'm totally with you that it's annoying. I'm actually very against the whole theme of giving unsolicited advice, which is what this essentially is, since it can promote the idea that the person who has the problem isn't smart enough to either figure it out on their own, or that it's not as big a deal as you think.

As someone who's 'been there, done that' with various people in my life, you have all my understanding and sympathy.

[zully.livejournal.com]

A-fucking-men. Sometimes I just want to bitch. Let me whine and stop trying to spoon-feed solutions or comfort and let me be bitchy, damnit.

Totally off-topic, but...

[eristeleute.livejournal.com]

I love your icon! May I ask where/what it's from?

[ex-ella-bane358.livejournal.com]

Yeah, all I need is a sounding board -- just someone to say 'hmm' and murmur sympathetic noises as I rant/cry/bitch away. It's too bad some of our closest friends/loved ones don't get that.

[krissielee.livejournal.com]

... ...Suppose I shouldn't say 'oh, honey, it'll get better! Cheer up, ya freak!' then? ^^;;;

But man, I feel your pain. Of course, I always itch to help (but part of that is because everyone comes to me for advice, usually on situations I have no experience with), even though I never expect people to listen.

*hugs tight* Venting is a good thing. I shall fix your problem by telling you to do it more. XP

[galdralag.livejournal.com]

I've taken to starting my venting with a remark on "I just have to bitch a bit, need an ear, sit there and look pretty while I rant". Saves me some additional bitching...

I'm an advice pusher myself *cough*
Trying to suppress that. Not succeeding.

[anansay.livejournal.com]

It's hard NOT to want to jump right in with what we think is the absolute perfect answer. We want to help and we want to be right. And sometimes it's hard to see how just sitting there, "doing nothing", can help a person in distress.

I've noticed though, on more than a few occasions, that while I was listening to someone rant and rave, and then suddenly they're all like, "I know what to do! I'l just...!" and that's it. They've talked for 30 minutes. I've said no more than 5 words and yet the problem is solved. Voila! :)

[anansay.livejournal.com]

So the thing I would dearly love to say to those folks (but never do) is this: I didn't come here to ask you for advice. If I wanted you to help me fix my problem, I would've said that. What I wanted was just to vent about it, and you offering "helpful" suggestions just makes me feel worse, because what you're basically saying is that I'm so incompetent that I can't handle this situation myself and need your help. I don't need your help. Perhaps no one can really help me at this point, and I'm just struggling to find a way through this on my own. Kindly fuck off and go try to fix somebody else's problems.

My best friend said, more or less, those exact words to her husband to let him know what she needed. She had to 'teach' him how to just listen.

Sometimes all a person needs is a sounding board, just someone to bounce ideas off of, or just to echo those feelings of frustration and, yeah, let you know that it's okay to feel like that.

I TOTALLY agree with you, Emma.

(Now, if parents can do that with their children so their children can grow up feeling competent in their problem-solving skills and not expect everybody else to solve their problems FOR them when they become adults.)

[florahart]

Um. So, I'm going to assume this question is not simply rhetorical and that you in fact wish for some perspective on why people do this.

This is one of those dimensions of personality things, much like introversion/extraversion or sequential versus big-picture learning. It's a topic we've spent some time on in staff meetings and my workplace, and there've been studies done on it, about people who choose to work in service professions because they have the fix-it-now imperative as part of their personality. They are the ones who when presented with a complaint will generate a list of 50 what-ifs in 5 minutes and start trying to solve the problem. Because I happen to work sometimes among a group of people who all have this tendency, we in fact have sort of written into our template for the problem-solving process: wait, is this a problem someone wants solved? because left to our own devices we will solve ourselves silly. Seriously.

The thing is, what you perceive as a venting rant? I can only barely make sense of. I believe you that it is how you feel, but I wouldn't feel that way, um, probably ever. Catharsis just plain doesn't work that way for me. Just venting and having the other person sit there and not have suggestions leaves me feeling hopeless--like, see? nothing can ever ever be done because I didn't come up with anything and neither did they and I'm just screwed and defeated and now I shall go cry a lot.

I have the *opposite* problem. When I rant, I usually *do* want opinions, not necessarily the same as mine, and suggestions, and what I get is people going oh that does suck and I'm sure it feels bad, and in fact, some people believe that because when a suggestion that doesn't work for me is offered, I want to discuss it further, I'm really being argumentative. I'm not. I want to explain/discuss/brainstorm/clarify. Also, to me, I'm free not to take suggestions anyway, and know that I know more about the situation than the suggester, so it doesn't bother me if they suggest something I already tried or tried and discarded.

I mean, occasionally I will rant and just want to holler, but on those rare occasions, 1. I say so because it ISN'T the standard for me, and 2. it pretty much doesn't help, and I know it. I just want to feel sorry for myself and wallow for a while before I come back and ask for constructive comments. I'm so not saying that when you are ranting it's necessarily that you just want to feel sorry for yourself; I'm saying that's how it works for me.

So the thing I would dearly love to say to those folks (but never do) is this: I didn't come here to ask you for advice. If I wanted you to help me fix my problem, I would've said that.

To me? That IS what to say. I'm happy to shut up, but absent being told, no, this is not the solve my problems kind of rant, I will pretty well always default to trying to help you brainstorm solutions unless something about the rant itself (like, the ranter saying "I don't even want to talk about this; I just want to rant") clues me in.

Now, I've *learned* that people don't always want that (despite that it mostly flabbergasts me), so I generally say in offering advice that I KNOW it's unsolicited, that I KNOW it may be completely unuseful and worth what you paid, which mostly seems to strike a happy medium of offering advice without making the feelings you describe so much (or, if it doesn't, so far no one has seen fit to tell me), but that's a learned thing, and totally unnatural to me.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I used to do exactly what I describe in this post, because that was the way my mother operated. She hated to see anyone she cared about in any sort of pain, and she really wanted to help you fix it. And since I grew up with that, I did it to other people too. When I was a teenager, a friend said something very much like this to me, and it stopped me in my tracks. I realized that I hated it when my mom did it to me, and still, I was doing it to other people.

So I stopped doing it, which took a lot of willpower (and still odes, really), but in the end it made me feel like I was a much better friend and person. If I am listening to a friend vent like this, I now listen for quite a long time before I say anything other than, "Yeah, that sucks." If I get any sense that they are actually looking for advice, the next thing I do is talk about a similar situation I was in and what happened. If I wasn't in a similar situation, then I really have no advice to offer and I just say that: "Wow, I wish I could do something to help, but I have no experience with this. Is there anything I can do for you to make this easier?"

And I leave it at that. I've opened the door, and they can come in if they like. I'm not going to drag them through it -- not anymore. Because in my experience, most people in that situation really are just venting. There are a few who aren't, and frankly, they should just tell me what they want if my listening and trying to understand is not enough. Friends can do that with each other, thankfully. :-)

[cutiewitchgirl.livejournal.com]

I don't usually leave comments, but I just had to say that this deserves a total, heartfelt AMEN. I've been feeling the need to say something along these lines all week, and I'm glad that someone had the guts to say it.

So, kudos, I feel for you.

[nightwish-fan.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean, that annoys me so much. Sometimes I just want someone to listen, yet that person will simplify my problem and say "don't worry, do this and everything will be ok" and it drives me nuts.

I'll confess I was like that though, I tried to be the problem solver. Now I realise how difficult it actually is to keep your mouth closed and just *listen*. I'm working on it though!

[arabiana.livejournal.com]

YES! Thank you for articulating what I've been trying to tell people for years! I just want to be able to talk to someone not have them fix it for me. I'm self sufficient thanks, I can solve my own problems. Argh this is so perfectly articulated! *cough* How would you feel if I printed this out and shoved it in my bf's face? Would you be averse to that? Because really, if I tried to tell him all this I would just get flustered and angry and end up not getting the point across. Again. *loves on you*
<3333333333333333 RE

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL, go for it! ;-)

[pauraque]

I find it hard to know exactly what reaction someone wants for their rant unless I know them pretty well, but I think what you're talking about -- validation, basically -- rarely goes amiss. I know for myself, sometimes I want it to be acknowledged that what I'm going through is real and significant, and that I'm not just being a big baby.

There's always room after you've said that to continue with "But maybe it could get better", if the person is open to it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

sometimes I want it to be acknowledged that what I'm going through is real and significant, and that I'm not just being a big baby.

YES. That's it exactly. The "cheer up" and "let me fix it" approaches don't even accept that what I am dealing with is a real problem, and that is frustrating to hear from a friend.

[nimroddess.livejournal.com]

Oh, how I miss my college roommate. Half our conversations were just rants and raves about stuff that pissed us off, filled with comments like "Yeah, that sucks dude" and "I hate that too!" My mother, on the other hand, is the opposite end of the spectrum. Just the other day, she emailed me out of the blue (truly unsolicited) explaining all the things I've done wrong recently and to tell me what she thought I could do to solve the problems she thinks I have. The (not-so)funny thing is that she bitches about her own mother all the time!

And I dated a guy recently who so badly wanted to "fix" me. And it wasn't as if I was broken beyond recognition or that he didn't have his own massive problems, but it was like he just couldn't rest until he'd solved my problem. He as much as told me that. We ended up breaking off because he was so intensely focused on me that it made the whole thing uncomfortable.

But ah well, the only way I've learned to deal is to figure out which people in my life are good listeners and which aren't - then only take my rants to those who will not make me more frustrated.

[elrienne.livejournal.com]

*huggles*

I agree with you 120%!! Sometimes, people just don't know when to leave you alone. Yeah, they can say that it is because they care (since they're family/lover/friend/whatever), but that doesn't mean they're automatically entitled to know everything at that exact moment when you're feeling low and shitty. You've got to know when to give people space to breathe.

And I hope you're better now after the rant.

[shadowpryde.livejournal.com]

As someone who has a bad case of 'white knight syndrome', I've learned over the years to nod, be understanding and wait for a real pause in listening to the other person and then ask, simply, "Do you need to keep venting or did you think there was some other way I could help you?" and say it in my most serious, non-flippant tone possible. Because I've learned this one the hard way because I've had good friends who were honest enough to say, "Please don't give me advice I just want to frelling vent!"

So, as someone who's heard it and listened to it, maybe (at least for the people you care about) try saying that their helpful suggestions make you feel worrse and that you're not an idiot and please for the love of deity just listen to you and be sympathetic but not nauseatingly cheerful or advice-giving.

(And I know that just fell under advice-giving and feel free to smack me, but I thought you might want to hear that it is actually helpful in some cases to let people have it full barrel.)

{shrugs}

-DL-

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL! This was just a rant, FWIW. ;-)

I used to be just like this until a friend confronted me about it. Ever since, I've worked really hard to change, because I always hated it when people did it to me. For me, it's partly an issue of respect. I respect their judgment that this is a difficult situation and offer them some validation for that first.

[jane-sehrn-ta.livejournal.com]

I think this is why any group-work I've ever done has been prefaced by "listen, and respond, but DON'T give advice". We all like to think we're wise and have important things to say. I confess I give advice more than I should, just because I hate to see folks hurting, but you're right, sometimes all that is needed is to be attentive and listen.

My whole take on the "people trying to fix my problems" thing is that they are in denial and don't want to look too hard at themselves or their own issues. It's a comfort thing for them. Sometimes, I guess, you have to say outright, "I don't want advice or an answer - I just want to vent".

(((huggs)))

[helens78]

So the thing I would dearly love to say to those folks (but never do) is this: I didn't come here to ask you for advice. If I wanted you to help me fix my problem, I would've said that. What I wanted was just to vent about it...

I have had to say that to my husband many times, not because he's uncaring but because it would never occur to him to rant or vent without getting some specific solution in return for it. No matter how many times this happens, it's just not something he'll think of if I don't tell him! It saves a lot of frustration for me if I say "I'm just venting, just shut up and listen" at the get-go.

...and you offering "helpful" suggestions just makes me feel worse, because what you're basically saying is that I'm so incompetent that I can't handle this situation myself and need your help.

My annoyance in this sort of situation is a little different -- it comes from the frustration that, if I've gotten to a point where I want to vent, I've undoubtedly already tried all the solutions they've got. So they'll say, "What about this, this and this?" and I'll say, "No, I've tried that, that, and that, and that doesn't work because of this," and then I get frustrated with myself because I feel like I'm being uncharacteristically negative and making it look like I don't want to solve my problem.

Which, of course, if I'm venting, maybe I don't right then, but that doesn't mean I never will.

Yep. All around, very frustrating. *hugs*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

if I've gotten to a point where I want to vent, I've undoubtedly already tried all the solutions they've got.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to say, actually. That is the part that gets me frustrated, along with annoyance that they can't seem to imagine I've actually tried a lot of things. :-P

[charlotteschaos.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I'm a blunt person and like... I'd rather someone say to me, "You know? I just want to vent, so stfu, Char." And I'd say, "all right. Would you like a drink?"

I know that for me, I just often don't really know what to say. If I know osmeone likes to vent, I let them vent. Some of my friends really want my opinion or suggestions, so it's hard to know unless someone says.

I think it was a Laura Kightlinger bit where she said, "Everytime someone says 'Sometimes things happen for a reason' I can't help but hear, 'Sometimes things happen with a razor.'" Yeah, morbid, but just... yeah, sometimes the optimism thing isn't... so helpful.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I fucking hate 'Sometimes things happen for a reason'. Because you know, often it's just random bad luck. It just sucks that you're in this situation, and that's all. Most people who say things like that are religious, though, and I imagine they must take some comfort from imagining that God has some greater plan for them. They just need to be patient and accept their shitty lot in life without complaining, and they'll be rewarded -- really!

I'm pretty sure neither of us believes that, eh? But I think that's part of my problem with the Mary Sunshines of the world. I don't think I'm part of some grand plan; I think I have to take the cards I was dealt and make the most of them. Sometimes venting is needed in that process. ;-)

[henpecked.livejournal.com]

see, i have the exact opposite problem. when people rant and rave to me, i automatically assume that they just want me to go "hmm," "really?" "oh no!" i can't give advice. advice goes against my nature. to me, asking someone for advice is saying, "i already made a decision, and now i need you to validate it for me." i've gotten caught up in so much unnecessary drama because of it.

[doro-chan.livejournal.com]

Wow. Thanks for that. I know what you mean because you described precisely what happens to me at the moment. And I know that I just want to talk about my problems to someone, and because I have neither flowers or a pet I have to take it out on people.

But you forgot one group of people: The one's who say that your problems are pretty much non-existent next to theirs, which may be true, but that does not make your problems less important. It just makes you feel bad because you feel bad about them.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL -- that last group are the ones I refuse to be friends with. ;-)

[singlewoman.livejournal.com]

I completely understand your frustration. I know who among my frineds will tkae my rant for what it is, and who will try to fix it. But as you said, it is just a rant there is nothing to be fixed so just be quiet and listen.

As far as this being an open letter to your mother, a good friend has this pillow; "If it is not one thing it is your Mother!" I'm sure you can relate.

Hope things are getting better after the rant. You know we'll listen.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Getting it out is often good. Usually good, even. There are shitty things in life that you can't control, and accepting that this is the hand you've been dealt can take a little effort.

So yeah. ;-)

[silver-osiris.livejournal.com]

One of these days I'm gonna get you a plaque or something - because seriously? - You're like my frickin' hero and I agree completely. I hate it when people constantly want to fix your problems. I'm completely self-sufficient, but sometimes you just need to vent because it's mor productive than tire-slashing.

[amy-leone.livejournal.com]

I sympathize. My Dad does that, the advice thing, and then gets all huffy if I don't happen to take his advice. Actually, my Mother does that, too, but not as much, because she hates it when my Dad does it.

I'm an advice giver, myself. But never until after the person has calmed down and finished venting, and then I try to open a discussion to get all the details, see what has already been tried, what's going to happen next, what I might be able to do to help, and if I can come up with a new persective. "Could you do this...? Have you tried...? What about...?" My friends don't generally try to strangle me, so I guess I'm actually being somewhat helpful- rather than being my Dad. :P

Reply from a lil Mary Sunshine

[forever-silky.livejournal.com]

As a lil Mary Sushine when I say things like
"Cheer up! Things will work out, I just know it!"
Everything happens for a reason or something similar

I am not
1. Trying to fix your problem
2. Telling you to shut up
3. Saying you have no right to be angry

I am
1. Trying to empathise with you the only way I know how
2. Dont know what to say so thought I'd say something positive to help a friend in the dumps
3. Feel sad that you have to go through such shit when you dont deserve it

What I would prefer you to say instead of being more angry in silence is to:
1.Tell me that 'I just want to have a good moan'
2. Tell that you actually feel like ranting right now and dont want to be cheered up
3. Tell me to shut up

On behalf of all Mary Sunshines' out there I apologise for making you want to get a revolver and shoot us down, however as our name signifies we are only trying to spread a little sunshine *sticks tongue out* (hope you know this is tongue in cheek)

You go on girl and have a good rant

Re: Reply from a lil Mary Sunshine

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

To be fair, what I'm talking about a pretty serious problems, in the face of which a Mary Sunshine response seems bizarre. There's a big difference between "I broke a nail!" or "I gained five pounds!" and "The doctor says I can't have children" or "My dog has cancer and I have to put her to sleep next week." It's the latter that I'm talking about, and sunshine is just not what you need when you're faced with shit like that.