Incest: Squick or Kink?

[emmagrant01]

Disclaimer: The point of this post is NOT to invite bashing of people who write fic that features incest, but rather to start a discussion about what people like and don't like about it. This isn't in response to any particular fic that's been posted recently; it's simply something I've been thinking about. I also want to make it clear that in posting this or expressing my opinion I am NOT judging anyone else's tastes in reading and writing particular kinds of fan fiction.

What is it about incest in fan fiction that appeals to people? It's something that's generally a squick for me, but yet I've read a couple of incest fics that I thought were very well done. Looking back, I think what I liked about those was that they involved some sort of acknowledgment of the fact that the sexual attraction was taboo, but the characters were unable to resist anyway. So I suppose I could say the fics fell into that we-shouldn't-do-this-but-omg-you're-so-hot-I-can't-stand-it category, which I find hot whether the people involved are related or not. In other words, I think that in general, I'm not a fan of incest, but if incest fics happen to hit some of my other buttons as well, I may enjoy them. (A profic example of this I often see cited is the Flowers in the Attic series by the late V. C. Andrews, which fascinated, horrified, and intrigued me as an adolescent. Some incest in fan fiction seems to be written in the same spirit, but not all.)

But of course, I'm really curious about what others think.
[Poll #659437]


Please feel free to add any comments you have. I realize my poll wasn't complete, so feel free to add in things you think I didn't cover. I know I'm by no means the first person to ask questions or put up a poll about incest, so if you can direct me to other polls about incest, I would appreciate it. :-)

Note that IP logging is on, and I will not hesitate to delete comments that are wanky or mean-spirited. I'd like everyone to feel comfortable commenting, whether incest is a kink or a squick for you, or something else entirely. If you would like me to screen your comment, just ask, but be warned that I might not be able to do it right away.

ETA: Holy shit! This post pretty much exploded! I'll go ahead and apologize right now, because there's no way I'll be able to respond to all of these comments. But they're fascinating to read, and I appreciate so many people taking the time to write out their thoughts in such details! I hope everyone else is finding the results as interesting as I do! *memories*

Comments

[darksylvia.livejournal.com]

If you read incest fic, which of the following describe its appeal for you?

The characters have to have chemistry. Then the incest is secondary. I'd never do it just for the hell of it. There has to be subtext and at least a hint of sexuality before I'd think about trying to write or read fics for that pairing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I imagine (though I can't be sure) that everyone who writes any sort of pairing-based fanfic sees chemistry between their characters. It seems subjective, and maybe that's part of the problem. I have a hard time seeing chemistry or attraction between characters who are related. I don't really see why Harry would be into Voldemort either, though, and some people do. ;-)

[littleroo27.livejournal.com]

I started out reading brother/brother incest, which I think interested me because I'm an only child. I have absolutely no knowledge of sibling relationships, so it's kind of a fantasy thing, maybe.

I have read all ages of incest fics, but it HAS to be at least somewhat consentual, even if it's the unaware consent of a young child who doesn't really know what their doing. Force is a big turnoff for me, especially if it's chan.

Mostly I read twincest or Malfoycest, because they're just so PRETTY!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the consensual thing, but it can be hard to know where that line is. For example, I really like Passage to Eden by Rushlight, which is Lucius/Draco and dubious con, and I think what does it for me has more to do with the context and the drugged-out feeling of it than anything else.

o.o

[kagyakusha.livejournal.com]

trying to explain...

Firstly,I don't actively seek out incest fics -- generally, not so much my thing.
HOWEVER, on the occasions that I have chosen to read fics that had incest, there was either a) twincest (which is IMHO, like masturbation ^^;;) or b) complex situations that made the incest seem...not normal, but reasonable, and understandable.

Re: o.o

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Twincest seems to be a special case in the HP fandom. I wrote some Luke/Leia twincest fic years ago, but the premise of it was that they hadn't quite reconciled their attraction for each other. That's different from the sort of Fred/George fic you usually see.

[trueperception.livejournal.com]

i've only ever read two fics that featured it. one was twincest, and the other was sibling. i personally would never seek it out, but if it's done well, and is not a completely random thing in the story, then i don't see a problem with it. to each his own kink.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

For me it's something that occasionally appeals to me, but not always, so I understand that completely. Thanks!

[evalinece.livejournal.com]

The few times i've read it, the 'cest is kind of secondary. Fred and George, for example, rock. And also, finish each others' sentences. They share everything, so why shouldn't they share that? And of course there's the Boondock Saints impression, but after watching two Irish guys roll around naked and be everything to each other, I can't imagine them not sharing that either.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I hear people say that about Fred and George a lot, but I have to say I can't remember reading a F/G fic that really did it for me and made me get it. Heh, maybe because I don't go looking for them? But yes, I get the "secondary" part -- if it's part of a good fic, I'm more likely not to be squicked by it. :-)

[zully.livejournal.com]

I will not read incest, because personally it squicks the hell out of me. To each their own, but.. I'm not going to read something that promotes incest, fantasy or otherwise. I must admit, it's definitely better for people with such inclinations to vent frustrations on paper instead of in real life -- pedophiles, for example, have been known to do this to escape their sexual frustrations.

Again, not to knock anyone else, but it just really, really isn't my thing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

From the comments so far, I think that most people who enjoy reading incest fic would actually be squicked by it in RL, so the appeal is more from a fantasy perspective. So I think it's probably incorrect to assume liking incest fic implies you want to sleep with your brother or molest your children. Not that you're saying that, but I just wanted to point that out. :-)

I think the same thing is often true with non-con fic. For some people, their a certain fascination with it, and fan fiction provides a way to explore that.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

this will probably sound bizarre, but for me the "incest kink" isn't a kink so much as i find it very poetically appealing. I'm a very visual person, so the picture that it paints - one, two, or more people who are a)visually striking (ie, the Malfoys or the Weasleys) and b)involved with each other in a sexual relationship - well, it's intruiging. In well-done incest fics, the main driving force is many times this similarity between the characters, and the idea of the beauty inherent in this sort of pairing, a beauty that comes not from the usual contrast (ie, Harry/Draco) but the unexpected lack of such contrast (ie Ron/Ginny). It's also very much a voyueristic, onanistic ideal - becoming sexually invovled with somone who "looks like you" and shares the same physical features brings out themes of self-gratification and self-pleasure that I find very compelling in fiction. Added to this is the idea of the forbidden, like you noticed above. Personally, I find sibling/sibling incest more interesting than parent/child incest, although I make exceptions for Lucius/Draco because I personally feel that it's very canon (or at least, more canon than something like Harry/Sirius is).

However, in RL I find it absolutely abhorrent. The only reason I can read and enjoy it in fandom is precisely because it exists in this sort of vacuum, where the poetic, appealing aspects of it can be addressed and brought out without the disturbing emotions that are inherently present in RL.

I wish I could point you to some examples, but I lost all my bookmarks a while ago. The one that immediately comes to mind is "Strings of Pearls and Copper Curls" by Aspen, but unfortuantly her site seems to be down right now. (that, or google search is just being a b****!)
Another fic that comes to mind is Mortal Instruments (http://www.livejournal.com/users/epicyclical/174739.html) by epicyclical, where she specifically introduces the story with a mention to the symbolic concepts behind incest.
In terms of slash...well, if you really want some, i'll get back to you on it, since it might take some digging to find the ones i'm thinking of ♥

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your interesting and insightful comments! I appreciate the fact that you've pointed out the distinction between finding something intriguing in a fictional setting and finding it intriguing in RL. That's a point that often gets overlooked in these discussions. It's particularly touchy where chan is concerned, and people on both sides of the fence have such strong feelings. I also don't think that liking chan implies one is a pedophile, but that's such a minefield...

Thanks for the link! I think Aspen left fandom -- I sure hope I'm wrong about that, but she deleted her LJ. :-(

[juliette-kelley.livejournal.com]

I have read only one incest fic, and that was only because it was by an author I trust and enjoy (lj user=midnitemaraud_r) and because my OTP was the main focus of the story (Remus/Sirius).

The incest was between Regulus and Sirius, which is probably the only incest I feel comfortable enough with to read. I think because the Black house is so screwed up that it adds a layer of despair and perversity which, in my opinion, could have had significant effects on Sirius that resulted in the reckless and angry behavior we see in canon.

However, I typically actively avoid incest fics, and it is something that squicks me.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Good point about Regulus/Sirius -- that's a context where it would serve a purpose other than just to be sex, which would help me buy it.

[fiona-fawkes.livejournal.com]

For me I think it's more of a chan squick in general than an incest squick. For example, twincest or sibling-cest seems socially unacceptable IMO, but not wrong in a grand kharmic sense. Therefor even though I don't personally enjoy it, I wouldn't knock others for enjoying it. However, adult/child or even adult/teen seems so very wrong to me on all levels regardless of relation or situation, that I really really dislike the fact that it is portrayed in fic with the intention of sexual enjoyment. I cannot, however, fault others their kinks considering there are others that feel just as strongly about with regards to me writing butt-sex.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I agree -- I think that what bothers me about some incest fics is when there is extreme chan involved. It comes across as a violation of trust or authority, and when the author is presenting that as sexually exciting, it totally squicks me. But it's definitely a YMMV situation!

[spirit-rider16.livejournal.com]

If you read incest fic, which of the following do you enjoy reading?

I don't know that I particularly care for any type of incest fic. I believe the way I feel about it is similar to the way you feel - I would probably like an incest fic if I would also like the fic were it not incestual. The element of "danger" comes into play, I suppose, because it can be similar to the way homosexuality is often portrayed in the wizarding world - as if it is looked down upon by everyone else. So, what I meant to say is that there is not one type of incest fic that I enjoy reading based on the identities of the persons involved.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right, I agree -- it completely depends on the context, for me. And often I can't predict which context I will find interesting and which will squick me. There's a James/Harry AU fic that I really like, and what I like about it is that the characters are sort of cornered and James does something to Harry that seems the only way out at the time, and then feels horrible about it. (I can't remember the name.) I thought that fic was well done, but ordinarily that pairing wouldn't appeal to me in the slightest.

[whoyouinvent.livejournal.com]

i'm not a fan of chan in general, especially in incest, which i think has to do with the power thing, for me. (i hesitate to call it sexual abuse, because it isn't always, but it just doesn't do it for me.)

when i do go for incest is more of the 'other half' sort of bond, or in an emotional h/c sort of way - often you see this with the weasley twins and between characters like bill and ginny.

personally, i consider harry/sirius a sort of incest although they aren't actually related, especially when harry is young. when he is an adult, though, the godfather relationship changes, so that shifts things.

i haven't considered incest in real life so much, i mean, consenting adults and all that. there are genetic issues, too, that have to be considered in case of reproduction. blah blah science.

but basically, siblings in fic tend to have this incredible bond, you know? all those emotions? they're pretty hot. but it would probably squick me slightly in real life. (very little would really gross me out at this point)

and amen, v.c. andrews, did i ever read the whole series when i was 12. not sure why my mother let me, but bygones.

[cleverthylacine]

I got my start in HP fandom writing Lucius/Draco and Draco/Narcissa, but I did it because there was a contest and I got bunnied like whoa. They were the first fanfics I had written in ten years or more, I'd only been doing original fic.

I like incest fics that contain the same elements I like in other erotic fiction (chan or otherwise), with the incest as an added kink; but I have to be able to believe the characters are capable of it, so Weasleycest doesn't do it for me. Mostly, incest as an added kink is about sameness and familiarity and instinctive understanding, with an added element of innocence and eagerness if one partner is a young child and caring/teaching if one partner is much older.

I don't like non-consensual incest fics. I don't generally like non-con at all, except for the kind of forced sex where the other person really secretly wanted it and couldn't say so.

[goodopinion.livejournal.com]

I don't read twincest unless there is another person involved. Otherwise I just can't read it. It's not that it squicks me, I'm just not interested.

Parent(Relative)/child really squicks me. It's a betrayal of trust and of authority.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Anything with parent/child configuration is automatically a squick. I have read Lucius/Draco incest fic that made sense in a twisted way, but while I could appreciate the writing, I didn't warm to the fic. If that makes sense.

Sibling incest makes much more sense to me because I think it's less about sex and power and more about love. The only sibling incest that I have actually said I enjoy is Fred/George and clearly that is almost auto-erotica. I think it's the twin thing that makes it NOT a squick. They are almost fucking each other.

I think the problem with incest it crosses that line into rape (especially in the parent/child arena) and I'm not really into rape fics at all. Again, for the same reason. It is an abuse of power.

[carvedwood.livejournal.com]

I would have answered "Twincest" but the only twincest I read is Fred/George. I wouldn't bother reading Padma/Parvati, for instance. I also don't bother reading other incest fics.
I've written a fic that included Lucius/Draco, but only because the fic was a gift for my beta and bestest buddy, and I thought she would like the inclusion; I wouldn't have written it otherwise. I'm squicked if the incest is chan, but mostly because it's the chan that squicks me.
I don't bother, in general, to put a moral judgement on incest fics (or any other kink, for that matter) - hello, I read and write beastie, who am I to judge, yeah? I'm just not interested in it.
Except for the Fred/George, of course. That, I like.

[goddessdel.livejournal.com]

LOL. I just had to reply because I'm kinda the opposite - I have very little issues in the fanfic world with incest (depending on the characters and situation. I couldn't see reading a pure PWP incest fic, it would be like, what's the point [of me reading it, not a judgment on the author]?), however, beastie just freaks me out. I can read it, I applaud those who have the balls to write it, but it never sits well with me.

Just thought I'd put in the other side, since it worked so perfectly with your point. ;)

[hlglne.livejournal.com]

there are certain fictional pairings for which it seems absolutely natural and required. Such as twins. Unless, like Luke and Leia, they don't really know each other that intimately because of being made into strangers. Then it squicks because it would be so unfair for them to find it out by accident.
Same with chan incest. Unfair because too much heartbreak results. Most incest squicks me actually, except for some very specific characters. What squicks is the guilt. Some incest writers like to play up the guilt, and that makes me quit reading. I want happy love.

[meninaiscrazy.livejournal.com]

Coming from the perspective of someone who has had incest/child abuse in the family it's kind of fascinating. Couldn't stand it in RL though since my Grandfather was a child abuser. That all happened before I was five and it was most likely other relatives that got abused ('cause that's when all the accusations came out).

Meh ... I've heard of people that gotten into fan fiction 'cause of abuse and/or rape too. It's supposed to be for some a kind of therapy. If I remember correctly one of my favorite sites 'owner' went through that and when I was first discovering fan fiction/slash on the 'net and she had a group based on the later one. Pretty big too if I remember right but, the yahoo took over (it was egroups then) and soon shut it down. Umm ... kind of going off track there. ^__^

[anjenue.livejournal.com]

I don't find incest hot. At all. Full stop. It's never about the sex for me. If there is incest in a fic, I will generally actively avoid it unless it's by a writer I trust or there's a very clear reason delineated at the start. I honestly get kind of ill at the thought of incest for the purpose of tittilation, or incest that's meant to be hot, or the idea of getting off on the wrongness of it, or whatever. I mean, I respect that not everyone is me, and I don't judge people based on how they regard it, but the thought of ME finding it hot makes me feel ill.

For me, it's really about the psychology of it. The incest fic I've written has been either Draco/Lucius or Fred/George, for the most part. I write Draco/Lucius in an attempt to understand the nature of their relationship as seen in the books (or, I did prior to HBP at least), and to flesh out Draco's character, his motivations, the reason he thinks the way he does, the way he regards his father, etc. It isn't meant to be a hotness thing, only an exploration of life in the Malfoy family, and, by extension, the life of a "typical" Pureblood family. For twincest, I find the psychology of that fascinating, the idea of needing to be close because of the feeling of being two halves of the same whole, to where the sex is an attempt to fuse something not meant to be broken, and just so natural that there's no sense of wrongness at all, or else I read the sort where it's twins sharing the same partner. And as I don't like to read threesomes where any member of the threesome is detached from any other member, that means the relationship between the twins has to be as active as the relationships between each twin and the third party.

So really, as far as squick, the things that make me especially ill are fics that to me read like the incest is there in an attempt to soak knickers, as it were, and has no purpose other than that. PWP in general is not something I get too into, and PWP incest just...not my thing. Specific sorts of incest that really bother me are parent-child of any sort when the child is still very much a child, mother-son of ANY sort, almost always father-daughter, and sisters, though that last one doesn't always squick.

[metal-dog5.livejournal.com]

I don't actively seek incest fic out, but in one of my fandoms it's canon for a couple of pairings, so there is fic I read with reference to these pairings.

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

I haven't ever actively sought incest fic, but I've read it when I've seen it recced by someone I trust to know good from bad, and I've read some things written by authors whose other works I like. I don't like parent/child incest at all (and when I say "don't like" I mean, it's one of the very few things I won't read. BDSM noncon chan? Alright. Not my thing, really [I like fluffy crackfic comedies and long epic tales of love!], but if it was recced a lot, I'd probably read it. Consenual parent/child fluff? No effing way. Just the thought of it makes me want to rip my skin off. [But, you know, I respect other people's right to read, write, and enjoy it. That's cool. Just so long as I don't have to look at it.]), but I can stand sibling incest and I don't really mind it much at all if they're twins. I think the twin thing though is like, well, okay, I've always wanted a clone of myself. So I could have kinky sex with her (and cuddle her, and marry her, and talk to her a lot, and love her forever and ever and ever, which is a really freaking narcissistic fantasy, but whatever). Even though I like boys. (And Natalie Portman and Angelina Jolie, because staggering beauty totally trumps genetic inclinations any day.) So, the twin thing may kind of be me going "wheee! copies!" or something.

Even when I'm reading good incest fic and enjoying it, I'm usually slightly squicked (except with twins). It makes my skin crawl. Like, the skin along my spine literally feels as if it's crawling right up my back. This doesn't happen often, and really creeps me out.

I do think incest fic is a lot better to read when it acknowledges that it's taboo and deals with that in some way. If it doesn't do that, I don't really know that you could properly call it incest fic, because if the relationship is just like how a normal relationship is ... well, it wouldn't make much sense, and I wouldn't read it.

[jehnt.livejournal.com]

Upon reading over the other comments, I felt like I should note that I'm very slightly less bothered by mother/son incest than by other parent/child incest permutations. I still wouldn't read it though (outside classical literary works, at least *cough*OedipusRex*cough*) because it's just ... not right. Creepies up and down my spine again now.

[ice-is-blue.livejournal.com]

I seem to only enjoy reading incest fics where it's non-het and there's a strong, loving, sibling bond. Adult/child incest squicks me, adult/teen incest... still a squick, I think. I've not really read a decent fic that fits into either of those categories.

The other thing that squicks me like adult/minor incest is teacher/minor. For some reason, in my book, this counts as more of an incestuous relationship owing to the trust implied in such a relationship. Part of that feeling may come from my personal experiences. At times, I was closer to my teachers than I was to my parents.

Of course, it's quite possible that I just don't approve of a large age gap in any intimate relationship, regardless of blood/trust ties. Hmmm... I think that's it. A gap of more than about 12-14 years (possibly as little as just 10) squicks me. ...Never thought about it that way before, but I think that might just be the root of it.

As to why I find the age gap squicky... *shrugs* I'm not sure how to explain that one.

[kriken.livejournal.com]

The only incest fic I will occasionally read is Fred/George and even then I tend to be picky. The chemistry has to be there or it just doesn't click and PWPs generally don't have enough depth to keep me interested. The only (maybe) exception to this rule is Cartographer's Craft by copperbadge, but the circumstances there are a bit different (even so, when I first realized the direction it was headed, my reflexes tried to kick in and tell me to stop reading. Very glad I didn't, though). I've tried reading other types of incest fic, just to see, but they only tend to make me cringe.

[spinfrog.livejournal.com]

umm.. *scratches head* ...there was incest in that fic?

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

Re: what I think makes an incest fic worth reading...

Like you, I need there to be some acknowledgement that the characters involved know what they're doingis socially unacceptable. I need them to struggle with the idea, I need for it to really bother them and for them, in the end, not to really think it's okay. I need them to always feel guilty or angry about it, the circumstances, whatever, but be made so out of control by the other person that they can't NOT be with them. I think this is why Flowers in the Attic is so fascinating--because really, Christopher is the sympathetic character in it, but he's also the one that wants to fuck his sister, and he struggles with it for years, he just can't get over it.

But more I think it's less to do about them being related then it is them having a valid reason why they can't be together--and those are always the stories I like best. The "omg I want you so much but we can't be together" ones. And like sometimes if it's written really well that'll work for like, a Harry/Draco or similar but it's much easier to accomplish that dramatic effect with a built in reason like, "oh know we share the exact same genetic makeup." Does that make sense?

[ms-mindfunk.livejournal.com]

For you personally, incest in fanfic is a:

I don't really know how to answer this question. Sometimes it bothers me to the point where a fic is unreadable, while sometimes it just makes me uncomfortable. Other times it doesn't bother me much at all.

It's not something I'd ever seek out, but I have read the occasional fic recc'd by someone I trust where incest was featured. I don't think I've ever found it hot..., well, maybe the borderline incest, like Sirius/Tonks or something like that where both are adults and the familial relationship isn't close. Twincest doesn't bother me either, although it definitely isn't a personal kink. They're FrednGeorge anyway, one entity for all intents and purposes, so I can make the leap of logic to belive that they'd be sexually involved with one another without finding it particularly icky or wrong. It's half a step away from masturbation, basically. *snort*

I cannot read anything with adults seducing children. I will never find that ok in any context, even fictional. Well, actually, the NAMBLA episode of South Park was funny as hell, but I can't think of another context in which the subject didn't make me either physically ill or murderously enraged. So, for me, even fictitonal characters engaging in pedophilia crosses a line. It is pedophilia to me, as children aren't capable of giving consent. They lack the skills and maturity to make that consent informed, and mentally/emotionally healthy adults aren't attracted to children in the first place. So, Sirius fucking a 10 year old Harry, or Lucius molesting Draco isn't juat a plot point to me. It's an abhorrent representation of a real life evil.

I can recognize parent/child incest or chan in other ways as a facet of a well developed story. If it's portrayed as something evil and it furthers something about the characters and the plot, I can accept it. If it's used to underscore the depths of a character's depravity, it can make sense to me. It has to be portrayed as wrong, though. Having chan just for fun or as if the child isn't being victimized is something I just cannot deal with.

I guess you're gonna have to call me closed minded on this one. Normally I am a pretty tolerant, live and let live person, but I just cannot accept the idea that having sex with children is ever acceptable, even in fiction. The incest angle just makes it worse.

[snowqueenofhoth.livejournal.com]

OMG. Your icon SCARES ME. *quivers*

I know that she's from some book I read when I was little. I don't remember what it was, but I do remember... enough to be SCARED.

Wow, this is a really weird reaction. Like, deja-vu fear. Or something.

omgomgsocreepedout

Okay, closing window now.

*freaked*

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

If you read incest fic, which of the following describe its appeal for you?
I don't actively read incest fic, but the only kind of incest I do read is Weasley twincest. It is not about the sex itself for me, but the idea of the 'special connection' between twins that's so widely talk about in popular culture and science. I enjoy the interplay/dynamics of the relationship and I usually just skip over the sex. The problem is very few people write the Weasley twins well, and there is precious little twins genfic. So I read twincest for the twins, rather than the 'cest.