Incest: Squick or Kink?

[emmagrant01]

Disclaimer: The point of this post is NOT to invite bashing of people who write fic that features incest, but rather to start a discussion about what people like and don't like about it. This isn't in response to any particular fic that's been posted recently; it's simply something I've been thinking about. I also want to make it clear that in posting this or expressing my opinion I am NOT judging anyone else's tastes in reading and writing particular kinds of fan fiction.

What is it about incest in fan fiction that appeals to people? It's something that's generally a squick for me, but yet I've read a couple of incest fics that I thought were very well done. Looking back, I think what I liked about those was that they involved some sort of acknowledgment of the fact that the sexual attraction was taboo, but the characters were unable to resist anyway. So I suppose I could say the fics fell into that we-shouldn't-do-this-but-omg-you're-so-hot-I-can't-stand-it category, which I find hot whether the people involved are related or not. In other words, I think that in general, I'm not a fan of incest, but if incest fics happen to hit some of my other buttons as well, I may enjoy them. (A profic example of this I often see cited is the Flowers in the Attic series by the late V. C. Andrews, which fascinated, horrified, and intrigued me as an adolescent. Some incest in fan fiction seems to be written in the same spirit, but not all.)

But of course, I'm really curious about what others think.
[Poll #659437]


Please feel free to add any comments you have. I realize my poll wasn't complete, so feel free to add in things you think I didn't cover. I know I'm by no means the first person to ask questions or put up a poll about incest, so if you can direct me to other polls about incest, I would appreciate it. :-)

Note that IP logging is on, and I will not hesitate to delete comments that are wanky or mean-spirited. I'd like everyone to feel comfortable commenting, whether incest is a kink or a squick for you, or something else entirely. If you would like me to screen your comment, just ask, but be warned that I might not be able to do it right away.

ETA: Holy shit! This post pretty much exploded! I'll go ahead and apologize right now, because there's no way I'll be able to respond to all of these comments. But they're fascinating to read, and I appreciate so many people taking the time to write out their thoughts in such details! I hope everyone else is finding the results as interesting as I do! *memories*

Comments

[darksylvia.livejournal.com]

If you read incest fic, which of the following describe its appeal for you?

The characters have to have chemistry. Then the incest is secondary. I'd never do it just for the hell of it. There has to be subtext and at least a hint of sexuality before I'd think about trying to write or read fics for that pairing.

[littleroo27.livejournal.com]

I started out reading brother/brother incest, which I think interested me because I'm an only child. I have absolutely no knowledge of sibling relationships, so it's kind of a fantasy thing, maybe.

I have read all ages of incest fics, but it HAS to be at least somewhat consentual, even if it's the unaware consent of a young child who doesn't really know what their doing. Force is a big turnoff for me, especially if it's chan.

Mostly I read twincest or Malfoycest, because they're just so PRETTY!

o.o

[kagyakusha.livejournal.com]

trying to explain...

Firstly,I don't actively seek out incest fics -- generally, not so much my thing.
HOWEVER, on the occasions that I have chosen to read fics that had incest, there was either a) twincest (which is IMHO, like masturbation ^^;;) or b) complex situations that made the incest seem...not normal, but reasonable, and understandable.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I imagine (though I can't be sure) that everyone who writes any sort of pairing-based fanfic sees chemistry between their characters. It seems subjective, and maybe that's part of the problem. I have a hard time seeing chemistry or attraction between characters who are related. I don't really see why Harry would be into Voldemort either, though, and some people do. ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the consensual thing, but it can be hard to know where that line is. For example, I really like Passage to Eden by Rushlight, which is Lucius/Draco and dubious con, and I think what does it for me has more to do with the context and the drugged-out feeling of it than anything else.

Re: o.o

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Twincest seems to be a special case in the HP fandom. I wrote some Luke/Leia twincest fic years ago, but the premise of it was that they hadn't quite reconciled their attraction for each other. That's different from the sort of Fred/George fic you usually see.

[trueperception.livejournal.com]

i've only ever read two fics that featured it. one was twincest, and the other was sibling. i personally would never seek it out, but if it's done well, and is not a completely random thing in the story, then i don't see a problem with it. to each his own kink.

[physixxx.livejournal.com]

i am extremely bothered by parent-child sex.

but brother sex is totally dif't... and it's probably the same reason as you -- i'm an only child. so i don't have the "eeek, he's my brother!" mentality.

also, it helps that i've KNOWN brothers who have had sex with each other. Some just once or twice and others on a regular basis.

(plus, my only forray into man-sex personally was a blubbering attempt at a handjob with my first cousin when we were 13/14) :blush:

i do not appreciate male-female incest, tho... simply because it runs the risk of bringing into the world a life, knowwutimean?

i did read a Fred/George twincest once... maybe it was poorly written, but i was just like "meh"... and i LOVE the thought of a 3-some with F&G, just not F&G together.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

For me it's something that occasionally appeals to me, but not always, so I understand that completely. Thanks!

[littleroo27.livejournal.com]

i do not appreciate male-female incest, tho... simply because it runs the risk of bringing into the world a life, knowwutimean?

I TOTALLY agree with you

[evalinece.livejournal.com]

The few times i've read it, the 'cest is kind of secondary. Fred and George, for example, rock. And also, finish each others' sentences. They share everything, so why shouldn't they share that? And of course there's the Boondock Saints impression, but after watching two Irish guys roll around naked and be everything to each other, I can't imagine them not sharing that either.

[zully.livejournal.com]

I will not read incest, because personally it squicks the hell out of me. To each their own, but.. I'm not going to read something that promotes incest, fantasy or otherwise. I must admit, it's definitely better for people with such inclinations to vent frustrations on paper instead of in real life -- pedophiles, for example, have been known to do this to escape their sexual frustrations.

Again, not to knock anyone else, but it just really, really isn't my thing.

[almostblue.livejournal.com]

this will probably sound bizarre, but for me the "incest kink" isn't a kink so much as i find it very poetically appealing. I'm a very visual person, so the picture that it paints - one, two, or more people who are a)visually striking (ie, the Malfoys or the Weasleys) and b)involved with each other in a sexual relationship - well, it's intruiging. In well-done incest fics, the main driving force is many times this similarity between the characters, and the idea of the beauty inherent in this sort of pairing, a beauty that comes not from the usual contrast (ie, Harry/Draco) but the unexpected lack of such contrast (ie Ron/Ginny). It's also very much a voyueristic, onanistic ideal - becoming sexually invovled with somone who "looks like you" and shares the same physical features brings out themes of self-gratification and self-pleasure that I find very compelling in fiction. Added to this is the idea of the forbidden, like you noticed above. Personally, I find sibling/sibling incest more interesting than parent/child incest, although I make exceptions for Lucius/Draco because I personally feel that it's very canon (or at least, more canon than something like Harry/Sirius is).

However, in RL I find it absolutely abhorrent. The only reason I can read and enjoy it in fandom is precisely because it exists in this sort of vacuum, where the poetic, appealing aspects of it can be addressed and brought out without the disturbing emotions that are inherently present in RL.

I wish I could point you to some examples, but I lost all my bookmarks a while ago. The one that immediately comes to mind is "Strings of Pearls and Copper Curls" by Aspen, but unfortuantly her site seems to be down right now. (that, or google search is just being a b****!)
Another fic that comes to mind is Mortal Instruments (http://www.livejournal.com/users/epicyclical/174739.html) by epicyclical, where she specifically introduces the story with a mention to the symbolic concepts behind incest.
In terms of slash...well, if you really want some, i'll get back to you on it, since it might take some digging to find the ones i'm thinking of ♥

[juliette-kelley.livejournal.com]

I have read only one incest fic, and that was only because it was by an author I trust and enjoy (lj user=midnitemaraud_r) and because my OTP was the main focus of the story (Remus/Sirius).

The incest was between Regulus and Sirius, which is probably the only incest I feel comfortable enough with to read. I think because the Black house is so screwed up that it adds a layer of despair and perversity which, in my opinion, could have had significant effects on Sirius that resulted in the reckless and angry behavior we see in canon.

However, I typically actively avoid incest fics, and it is something that squicks me.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I hear people say that about Fred and George a lot, but I have to say I can't remember reading a F/G fic that really did it for me and made me get it. Heh, maybe because I don't go looking for them? But yes, I get the "secondary" part -- if it's part of a good fic, I'm more likely not to be squicked by it. :-)

[fiona-fawkes.livejournal.com]

For me I think it's more of a chan squick in general than an incest squick. For example, twincest or sibling-cest seems socially unacceptable IMO, but not wrong in a grand kharmic sense. Therefor even though I don't personally enjoy it, I wouldn't knock others for enjoying it. However, adult/child or even adult/teen seems so very wrong to me on all levels regardless of relation or situation, that I really really dislike the fact that it is portrayed in fic with the intention of sexual enjoyment. I cannot, however, fault others their kinks considering there are others that feel just as strongly about with regards to me writing butt-sex.

[spirit-rider16.livejournal.com]

If you read incest fic, which of the following do you enjoy reading?

I don't know that I particularly care for any type of incest fic. I believe the way I feel about it is similar to the way you feel - I would probably like an incest fic if I would also like the fic were it not incestual. The element of "danger" comes into play, I suppose, because it can be similar to the way homosexuality is often portrayed in the wizarding world - as if it is looked down upon by everyone else. So, what I meant to say is that there is not one type of incest fic that I enjoy reading based on the identities of the persons involved.

[whoyouinvent.livejournal.com]

i'm not a fan of chan in general, especially in incest, which i think has to do with the power thing, for me. (i hesitate to call it sexual abuse, because it isn't always, but it just doesn't do it for me.)

when i do go for incest is more of the 'other half' sort of bond, or in an emotional h/c sort of way - often you see this with the weasley twins and between characters like bill and ginny.

personally, i consider harry/sirius a sort of incest although they aren't actually related, especially when harry is young. when he is an adult, though, the godfather relationship changes, so that shifts things.

i haven't considered incest in real life so much, i mean, consenting adults and all that. there are genetic issues, too, that have to be considered in case of reproduction. blah blah science.

but basically, siblings in fic tend to have this incredible bond, you know? all those emotions? they're pretty hot. but it would probably squick me slightly in real life. (very little would really gross me out at this point)

and amen, v.c. andrews, did i ever read the whole series when i was 12. not sure why my mother let me, but bygones.

[cleverthylacine]

I got my start in HP fandom writing Lucius/Draco and Draco/Narcissa, but I did it because there was a contest and I got bunnied like whoa. They were the first fanfics I had written in ten years or more, I'd only been doing original fic.

I like incest fics that contain the same elements I like in other erotic fiction (chan or otherwise), with the incest as an added kink; but I have to be able to believe the characters are capable of it, so Weasleycest doesn't do it for me. Mostly, incest as an added kink is about sameness and familiarity and instinctive understanding, with an added element of innocence and eagerness if one partner is a young child and caring/teaching if one partner is much older.

I don't like non-consensual incest fics. I don't generally like non-con at all, except for the kind of forced sex where the other person really secretly wanted it and couldn't say so.

[goodopinion.livejournal.com]

I don't read twincest unless there is another person involved. Otherwise I just can't read it. It's not that it squicks me, I'm just not interested.

Parent(Relative)/child really squicks me. It's a betrayal of trust and of authority.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

Anything with parent/child configuration is automatically a squick. I have read Lucius/Draco incest fic that made sense in a twisted way, but while I could appreciate the writing, I didn't warm to the fic. If that makes sense.

Sibling incest makes much more sense to me because I think it's less about sex and power and more about love. The only sibling incest that I have actually said I enjoy is Fred/George and clearly that is almost auto-erotica. I think it's the twin thing that makes it NOT a squick. They are almost fucking each other.

I think the problem with incest it crosses that line into rape (especially in the parent/child arena) and I'm not really into rape fics at all. Again, for the same reason. It is an abuse of power.

Re: o.o

[whoyouinvent.livejournal.com]

could be a different between het twincest and slash twincest, too - the fact that the wesleys twins aren't getting each other pregnant would probably make a difference. (but it *is* fandom, anyone heard of some weasley twincest mpreg? i haven't, but i'd take bets that it's out there.)

Re: o.o

[whoyouinvent.livejournal.com]

wow, i totally can't spell tonight. eep.

Re: o.o

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

anyone heard of some weasley twincest mpreg? i haven't, but i'd take bets that it's out there.

LOL, so would I!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

From the comments so far, I think that most people who enjoy reading incest fic would actually be squicked by it in RL, so the appeal is more from a fantasy perspective. So I think it's probably incorrect to assume liking incest fic implies you want to sleep with your brother or molest your children. Not that you're saying that, but I just wanted to point that out. :-)

I think the same thing is often true with non-con fic. For some people, their a certain fascination with it, and fan fiction provides a way to explore that.