Random quote

[emmagrant01]

This is taken directly from a comment on a (non-fandom) comm I follow:

Sex isn't only about penetration, btw: gay male sex stereotypes are often based on straight assumptions of what constitutes male sexuality. Straights often think that gay sex is all about butt sex: it's not the only thing. It's also not only about orgasms, anatomy, and technique: they forget it's about the love. I sound sappy, but ultimately it comes down to that. I know gay men who've never had anal sex, giving or receiving. Gay men aren't defined by a sex act, they are defined by the nature of the attraction, not the acts itself.

• Some of us slashers say this sort of thing a lot, but do you think it really translates into our fic? Do we tend to portray sex and relationships between two men or two women in a realistic way, or do we tend to stick with heterosexual stereotypes and gender roles?

• Do you prefer to read/write about realistically depicted gay characters, or do you think slash isn't about characters being GLBT? (I don't mean that the focus of the stories is on GLBT issues, but that the characters are assumed to be gay, lesbian, bisexual, etc., as opposed to... well, I'm not sure what. But I know I've heard people talk about slash not being about GLBT characters; I just can't remember what they said.)

*sips coffee*

Comments

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You're right about the entertainment thing, and it's true that people like different things in their fic. Some people adore fic that reads like a bodice ripper, and for some folks, reading such a fic would be absolute torture!

[cheshyre]

I've read male-male porn written by and for guys and I've read slash, and there are definitely differences.
I don't think it's heterosexist assumptions, but because we're women so don't have firsthand experience with male anatomy. [Talking about something similar with my husband last night, I pointed to the prevalence in slash of men finding ways to have penatrative sex facing one another. I suspect that's far more common in slash than among actual gay men.]

Then again, how realistic is "lesbian porn" geared towards men?
I suspect slash is analogous.

But, I don't see that lack-of-realism as a bad thing. It's porn (smut or emotional) giving the audience what they want, and as long as the audience is aware that these are fantasy portrayals, it doesn't need to strive for realism.

As I wrote recently, I'd love to see a study comparing and contrasting M/M porn for gays, M/M porn for women, F/F porn for lesbians and F/F porn for men, to get some actual data beyond the anecdotal impressions.

[cheshyre]

Speaking of realism, I'll be very curious to compare the reaction to Brokeback Mountain from women and from gays...

And if Mountain is a huge hit with female audiences (which I think it will be), the mainstream media is going to go looking for reasons. This could blow the lid off all the M/M for women online. Are we ready for that kind of exposure? [*]

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

I hope Clio comments on this, because she has Thoughts that are very worthwhile on this topic. She's been teasing me about being a random non-militant slasher (I don't have the attention span for militance) lately in part because I'm fandom hopping for slash whoring but mostly because of her own writing, the pieces I like best are the ones she feels fit most neatly into traditional slash patterns and tropes. I have an ENORMOUS kink for men all verklempt and emotional, and I think that dealing with sexuality issues on top of falling in love and with any other attendant drama just sort of ramps all that up a little bit.

In other words, slash kind of hits the guys-in-turtleneck-sweaters button for me - OK, so it's often gay, but what's important is that there are men having open hearts. I have an intuitive sense that you see this less often in hetfic, or that it reads somehow more... harlequiny?... in het fic. What's interesting about thinking about it this way is that it's really NOT about the women - I mean, a lot of the people who are baffled by slash think it misogynist, because why are slashers ignoring the female characters? This is a bigger societal thing. Last night I was talking to a friend about what men are really LIKE, and my husband is a very gentle man. We're very close, very intimate, and I know that he is an emotional creature, and yet I watch Oprah and they are TELLING me what men is like, and the audience is nodding along, and wtf? So slash is another way to explore that, and enjoy that, and think about that.

This probably makes sense to me and, like, three other people. :)) But my own thoughts on this are too fluid right now to completely nail down, so this is just some rambling for the moment.

[evil-erato.livejournal.com]

I am highly amused that you and I had the same thought: "I hope Clio comments on this...". :))

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

I know my main irritation is with people treating asses like vagina replacements. Um, asses don't self-lubricate. Get some lube in there, or I'm going to wince when reading your story.

I'll have more to write on this topic later. It's too early yet.

[oconel]

Recently, I read a story written by a man (allegedly) and there was no lube involved, after that and other things (very graphic description of hair in the ass and the balls being called "orbs") I had to quit.

I think there's a big difference between what women want to read and what gay men do. And though it's true that relationships (not only gay) are based on something more than just sex... well, we're talking about smut.

BTW, I know your icon!Harry :P

[shikishi.livejournal.com]

Hmmmmmm.. I am borderline with my reading preferances, I like realism with a dash of "hey this is slash Fiction". If it strays too far away from what I know to be truths then no, but the occassional melting of a line or two is fine - so long as it is understood that this is probably not a reality.

[sorion.livejournal.com]

Straight sex isn't only about penetration, either... But people tend to forget that, too ^_~

Of course gay men aren't defined by the sexual act.
But last time I checked, they did have sex... Just like everybody else.

It's the same with every romantic story. There's sex in some, but not others.
Personally, I don't get, why this seems to be so important. In the end, it's all about the romance and the lovin' and, yes, sometimes about sex.
Slash is no different. (And certainly no less "realistic" than most straight love stories...)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Straight sex isn't only about penetration, either.

Absolutely. I wonder if there's more variety of sex acts depicted in het fic or in slash fic?

[(Anonymous)]

I remember when the movie "Wilde" came out, one of the (liberal intellectual) papers here in Norway had a column where the columnist reviewed the movie, and specifically, the sex scenes. He complained about a scene with Wilde and Bosie which was, basically, in between the thighs-fucking and frottage, face to face. He whined about the unrealistic sex scenes, "everybody knows that's not how gays do it, they fuck each other in the arse from behind, and, really, for a film this size they could have done a little research, woot?"

I had been wondering, before that, if that particular columnist was straight or gay. Well. Straight and unimaginative.


But to answer some of your questions;

Do you prefer to read/write about realistically depicted gay characters, or do you think slash isn't about characters being GLBT?

Yes. I prefer to read about fairly realistically depicted gay characters. :)

And, yes, I think slash isn't about characters being GLBT. :)

As you say, these questions come up from time to time, and different people have different views of this, and what slash is, and what function, if any, it has, and why it seems to be mostly heterosexual women who write and read slash.

For me, the idea that slash is a kink is what works best to explain it. Being a kink, why one likes it is sort of irrelevant, but being a kink, it also opts out of GLBT issues in the same way that other, different, kinks relates to real life, and real life issues.


That's not an excuse for bad or unimaginative writing, though. I usually think that the slash writers I consider to be really good are better at avoiding heterosexual stereotypes and gender roles (that often put me off fic), but it may just be that the quality of the writing is making me buy what they're saying regardless, I don't know. :)

- Clara

[mmebahorel.livejournal.com]

Uhm, isn't it, well, not documented, but widely believed that Wilde never engaged in penetration? Therefore they did a hell of a lot of research. (and it obviously takes a straight man to have a complaint about Stephen Fry and Jude Law mimicking a sexual act)

[taliawyvern.livejournal.com]

*hurriedly gulps coffee* Pretty much all my characters I try to make realistic and often fail. I fall back into the steroetype habits and its hard to get out of what you know really well.

And then there's Evien. XD Evien I play and write so realistically it scares me sometimes. He's still never tried "buttsex", but hey, he's still young. *shrugs* I'd elaborate more if I thought it was important or if I wasn't in a hurry. Have a good day!

[magicicada.livejournal.com]

In slash and any fanfiction, really, I'm far more concerned with characters being realistically depicted as themselves than as gay or straight. The gay men I know range from guys I go to school with to the much older friends of my parents, who’ve been in committed relationships for years. I don’t think there should be an assumed formula to how a gay character should act as opposed to a straight character, and asking myself questions like ‘would a gay man do this?’ don’t seem nearly as important as asking ‘would Harry Potter do this?’

I find that the slash fics that best show characters as real, complex people, who are relatable and recognizable as their canon selves are also the ones where I find the slash element and sex (if there is any) most believable.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I don’t think there should be an assumed formula to how a gay character should act as opposed to a straight character

Yes, absolutely. I'm trying to remember what I've heard people say about this, but I can't seem to articulate it. I have been in lots of discussions/panels where people have said something like, "Characters in slash fic aren't gay, and we're not writing GLBT lit or erotica."

And my thought to such a statement is, "Speak for yourself." I really do consider what I write to be in the arena of GLBT lit, and that's just me, of course. But I'm disturbed by the assumption that if the fic is about a character who is gay, somehow that becomes the defining factor, as if there is nothing else going on in that character's life other than sex.

[evil-erato.livejournal.com]

I don't think that most slash writers place high value on the reality of gay life when writing fics. Well, perhaps it isn't that reality isn't valued but that it doesn't take priority, and I can see why. First off, most of the slash writers are straight women and therefore not writing about something they themselves can experience first hand and know intuitively - therefore there are bound to be things that we get wrong about the interactions. Secondly, and somewhat more importantly, fanfic - and especially slash fic - is about taking reality/Canon and turning it on its head. If you're already changing reality to make two characters fall in love, why can't you change reality a bit more and make them act they way you would like them to (or need them to, in order to advance a plot), rather than they would were they flesh and blood people? For a lot of people, reality is boring, and no one wants to be bored reading a fic - you want drama, and humor and love and all these other emotions, yes, but you want them to be... magnified, for lack of a better word. And that goes for the sex, too - it becomes idealized, in a way, and the ideals that are being referenced are those of straight women because that is who is writing the fic.

As for what I like to read, I like to read both realistic relationships and the less realistic ones. There is a time for everything. ;) I don't think that slash fic is about characters being GLBT, really - because it is *fic* and not real life. But that doesn't mean that having a character acting in a realistic manner is a bad thing. I think there needs to be more of it, really, because otherwise it does sort of perpetuate certain behaviors, especially that of seeing GLBT folks as toys rather than real people.

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

Slash in general does tend to stick with heterosexual stereotypes and gender roles, and most of the straight women reading? Aren't really interested in statistics on how many gay men actually have anal sex. I've been criticised before for "not writing real sex" because I generally tend not to write anal sex -- or sex in general -- at all. The situation seems to be that a lot of the people who read slash are pretty much convinced that if there's no penetration, sex hasn't happened (I've been chastised by reviewers before for not letting the characters have 'real' sex *eyeroll*). Blow-jobs and hand-jobs and frotting here or there, "it's not sex unless there's a below-the-waist cavity involved". Does this bother me? Yeah, does. It irks me like any ignorant attitude does. I just don't think anything can be done about it, particularly.

In the fandom at large, 'slash' is often synonymous with 'buttsex' -- if someone doesn't want to read the stuff I write, which is largely buttsex-free (not lately, actually, but generally speaking) because anal sex is rare in what I write, I'm fine with it. People will read what they like no matter what issues are shoved in front of them -- I mean, there's a contingent of fandom who refuse to believe that Blaise Zabini is black and continue to write him as a really tanned Italian... because there are people out there who want to read that.

I write exclusively in HP, where the societal issues of being LGBT are pretty much a free-for-all; I've seen it written that the wizarding world is exactly like the Muggle world with the same prejudices and troubles, I've also seen it written that the wizarding world makes no distinction between LGBT and straight, and pretty much everything in between these two (including the very extreme 'gays are murdered on sight' though fucked if I can remember when and where I read that). So a 'realistic depiction' of gay characters in HP depends entirely on 1) your choice of societal attitudes in the wizarding world and 2) your own experience (first-hand or otherwise) with people who are gay -- what it's like, etc. Because if you're writing about two pure-blood wizards who grew up in a highly tolerant wizarding world, their 'gay' experience won't be any different from any 'straight' person's experience, because they never have to struggle with being 'different' in the first place, in such a world. But if you're writing gay Muggle-born wizards, obviously they'll have a different experience even if the wizarding world is 100% tolerant and supportive of any sexuality. And so on ad nauseam. HP is very flexible that way, so I can't really give you a straight answer to your second question. I prefer realism in everything, not just depictions of having particular sexual leanings, but 'realism' is relative, given the HP canon.

[cheshyre]

very extreme 'gays are murdered on sight' though fucked if I can remember when and where
I initially misread this sentence and thought that sounded like a marvelous fic:

I can't see you, but I know you're there! So one last screw before I kill you?

Heh.

[old-enough.livejournal.com]

For me, Harry/Draco slash is about the relationship of those two individuals. Draco is the only canon character that I feel is a believable partner for Harry. So, my reading of slash in this fandom is very much about the characters rather than a particular interest in GLBT issues.

I have read "gay" stories over on Nifty and other sites, written by men for men, and they can be surprisingly, overwhelmingly romantic. Yes, sex is an important topic, but looking back on them I tend to remember a syrupy view of love and romance rather than steamy sex -- outside those stories that were obviously written as masturbatory fantasies anyway.

If I have a problem with the portrayals in this slash fandom, it is more where one or the other of the characters winds up being too feminine (and I'm not talking about sex roles here). It seems to require a certain skill to portray both of the characters as psychologically male. Thinking back on the different authors, my sense is that the more mature authors tend to do a better job of this, possibly just because they have had more time to get to understand what makes the opposite sex tick?

[sorion.livejournal.com]

If I have a problem with the portrayals in this slash fandom, it is more where one or the other of the characters winds up being too feminine

Definitely with you on that one...
I write and read in anime fandoms, too, and they are often even more into the destinction between top and bottom (and, yes, that refers to the in- and outside of the bedroom).

I don't see why they have to effeminate one of them... And why they don't just write het, if they insist on roles like that.


Thinking back on the different authors, my sense is that the more mature authors tend to do a better job of this

Yup... Abslutely. My arguments tend to be with the younger writership ^-^'''

[nimroddess.livejournal.com]

When it comes down to it, I think what is considered "realistic" depends on the reader, not the author. I read slash, I don't write. What constitutes a realistic sex relationship for me is not necessarily realistic for you or any other author. Sure there are so-called norms as to what is realistic - but isn't that sort of the definition of a stereotype?

And, at least in the HP fandom, it's really hard to be able to take a specific fic and say "Ok, this could happen in real life." Mostly because they take place in a fantasy world where magic is real. Usually, when there's plot anyway, the romance/emotional/sex stuff has dragons and reparo charms mixed in. And I know this going in, so I don't often try to force a fanfic into "the real world."

But you're just asking about the relationship aspect of the fic. There are fics where you could separate the romantic relationship from the magical world and the plot within. There are fics where the romantic relationship is dependent on some aspect of the magical world in which it is set. In my opinion, the relationships portrayed in these fics are usually less realistic. That's a generalization, but I think it makes sense. Harry likes Draco because he was forced to work with him, talk to him and get to know him, or because he accidentally swallowed a love potion? Right? And it must be said that I have started to read a few fics that were so out of character they went beyond defying canon to just plain defying human nature. They're wizards, not rabbits.

So basically, I guess I'm agreeing with everyone else and saying that 1) everyone likes something different in their slash and 2) we know that what we're reading are not true stories, so to expect everything to be exactly as it is in the real world would sort of defeat the purpose of it being fiction.

[dramaphile.livejournal.com]

I've definitely had almost the same conversation before with petulantgod regarding one-night stands. According to him, Queer as Folk has us women clearly brainwashed. But then again, how realistic are portrayals of het relationships on tv?

I think, from a PWP standpoint, there are definitely a lot of pretty unrealistic fics (because, really, two boys who just decided they're gay after having a big fight having anal sex in a broom closet? Just a bit much), but het is a lot the same way. Do you know anyone whose first time involved kinky bondage with someone you've hated for the past six years? Not too likely.

Part of fanfic is that it's fantasy, and if we want to write sex so it's better and kinkier than in real life, then damnit we should be able to!

As far as gender roles and glbt issues, I think that tackling that is great, but it really depends on what the point of your story was. if I was writing a novel-length fic about Harry growing up and falling in love etc... then I might tackle some of that stuff, because it'd be important for character development, but in reality, I write short smutty fics, and there's no space during the sex for anyone to angst about being gay or having issues being accepted or whatnot. Occasionally, it fits, but often, it just doesn't. But I'm not setting out to make a point about the realistic portrayal of gay relationships with my stories, I'm setting out to tantalize and arouse.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

there are definitely a lot of pretty unrealistic fics (because, really, two boys who just decided they're gay after having a big fight having anal sex in a broom closet? Just a bit much), but het is a lot the same way.

*grins* Right -- and that's part of the fantasy aspect we know and love. There's nothing wrong with either one, of course. I'm one of those folks who likes more realistic portrayals of sex (especially in firsttime scenarios), but I enjoy the over-the-top unrealistic fantasy fuckfests too! ;-)

But I'm not setting out to make a point about the realistic portrayal of gay relationships with my stories, I'm setting out to tantalize and arouse.

That's the great thing about fandom, IMO -- you can have that be your focus, or you can be all about writing very realistic canon-specific fic. Or you can be like me, and write whatever the hell you feel like writing that day. *grins*

[penknife.livejournal.com]

I do often get a "non-penetrative sex isn't real sex" vibe off of some parts of fandom, which sometimes makes me twitchy. "Realism" is always hard to define, but I'm not particularly interested in reading slash about straight men having sex, and I prefer slash where the fact that the characters are GLBT has some effect on how they experience the world.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

alright, I am going to weigh in on this issue with a very simple explanation of why I usually have my guys fucking the bejesus out of one or the other's butts. Because sex is penetration to me. Several months ago someone on LJ (who is a gay male and who I just can't remember who it was) wrote a very interesting discussion (sort of an amusing diatribe really) about how gay sex isn't all about butt sex and that a lot of guys aren't into it and why are all you women writing like butt sex is the universal end to all your NC-17 fic. See above about how sex for me is penetration. It's also oral sex, which is why there's always lots of blow jobs in my fic because I happen to be an oral sex hor both ways, I like getting it and giving it.

So it may not be absolute "canon" for guys to have anal sex as a staple in their sexual relationship, but vaginal penetration is a staple in mine and as long as it's an acceptable practice between consenting partners, I just don't see the issue. I mean, I don't get spanked by my husband and yet I don't mind reading a good spanking fic. That's not canon in my life, but you know, THIS IS FICTION. I write what turns me on. And having someone stick their dick in my turns me on. And if I'm not turned on by what happens to my characters then the fic doesn't work. It just doesn't. That's not just sex related. You have to be turned on by your own fiction. It can be through characterization, plot, dialogue, pacing, but it's got to turn you on. And in my fic, there is usally some anal sex, but not all the time.

Do we tend to portray sex and relationships between two men or two women in a realistic way, or do we tend to stick with heterosexual stereotypes and gender roles?

You know, I am not gay, so I don't know. I do know a lot about personal interaction and what it's like to love someone and what it's like to hate someone and yet be attracted to them and what it's like to fuck someone you love. To me, all that is endemic to the human condition and I don't really give a flying fuck about whether or not I'm writing stereotypes. I try to make my characters unique and interesting. That's what I'm striving for. I would NEVER say to a gay writer that you can't write about heterosexual relationships because you've never been in one. I don't think anyone has the right to say to me that I can't write about homosexual relationships because I've never been in one. Relationships are about power and love and need and desire and connection. That's universal.

Uh, got rather heated about this. Didn't mean to.

Bottomline. I try to write interesting characters, throw in a little plot, and sometimes some sex because in short fiction that's a neat way to get people to connect on a very primal level. In short fiction, you need primal to get your point across fast. And it doesn't need buttsex to do that, but like I said, I like a dick up me and sometimes my characters like it too.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I like a dick up me and sometimes my characters like it too.

*grins* This sounds like it would make a good sub-title for your LJ!

I totally understand what you're saying. It's an extremely complicated issue, and I'm always curious how people feel about it from the perspective of their own writing. This is something that I'm probably completely inconsistent about, because I write for different reasons at different times.

The comment in the post above was made by a gay man on a non-fandom-oriented comm. He was talking about the way society perceives gay sex in general, not about slash. But I can't help but wonder how and to what extent the slash community reflects, accepts, and rejects the larger society's perceptions of homosexual realtionships and sex.

[lildove42.livejournal.com]

I have reached an interesting point in my life in fandom I suppose. When reading fics, I find that I gloss over the sex. I am more interested in the emotional aspect of the relationship than I am in the sexual (though, at times pwp is exactly what I need!). I think it translates in some fic and not others, which is not awful I suppose. Different things for different people. But for me, yes I am much more interested in the emotional dynamic in slash fanfiction particularly in the QAF fandom because the dynamic between Brian and Justin is so interesting anyway. Even in HP, there is such a sense that Harry and Draco are such polar opposites, it's really interesting to see them interact outside the bedroom as two strong-willed men. I don't know. I'm lame.

*sips hot chocolate*

[djinnj.livejournal.com]

*raises hand*

Me too.

A well written sex scene is compelling more for the emotional connection and ongoing characterization than for its relative smuttiness. And sadly they could just as often be excised with no loss to the story. I often skip right past them because it's just ho-hum another bit of vaguely (un)realistic generic porn.

[hlglne.livejournal.com]

May I x-post a link to this in slashphilosophy?

And yes, sex in fanfics is unrealistic. I like HP and GFFA because the characters can have mindsex, Force-wielding sex, magically assisted sex, interspecies nonbestial sex, and all the lovely flavors RL sex lacks unless you are a telepath or synesthetic. And even the RPS is full of characterizations that have more-than-human stamina, even for horny teens.

Buttsex can be written badly and boringly, just like any other sex. I tend to write a little of everything, because I like to write something new, that I haven't tried to depict before. But I read whatever the others write. Now that rimming is the fashion, I read that. Anal penetration is the fashion, too. This will likely shift over time; things do.

The only things I don't like are deliberate, institutionalized sexual cruelty and bad hygeine that could cause illness. They ruin the mood.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Link away!

Now that rimming is the fashion, I read that.

Is it really 'the fashion', seriously? Because it's just been the dirty little kink of a few of us for ages.

[darksylvia.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the people writing slash (well, BAD slash), definitely are trying to make gay sex into a hetero equivalent. I think it goes along with bad characterization, when the author makes one of the men 'feminine' and obnoxiously so.

But I think there are authors who do understand, too. And there are the authors who ONLY write the love, not the sex, so that works pretty well.

For me, the whole point of slash is that it's NOT male/female, traditional roles, traditional feelings about sex. The m/m allows us to break with the usual romantic ideals. It drives me crazy when people just tack on bad het romance and change the pronouns.

[lildove42.livejournal.com]

I looooove your icon!

[earth-magic.livejournal.com]

This is one of the reasons I don't like the whole Top/Bottom idea of fics. I'm not saying one person or the other isn't more dom or sub, but it just seems to have become quite an important part in slash fic with people refusing to read if their favourite male isn't in the position they expect. It then seems that the Bottom ends up taking on the female gender role in the relationship.

And it is easy to always fall into the idea that the only sex that is any good is the penatrative kind.

Share and share alike *grins*

[spark-of-chaos.livejournal.com]

I personally like it very much when people tell me 'wow that was hot/realistic/so good.' But I think that 1) my being female, and 2) 98% of my readers being female too makes the issue about realistic portrayal not so important. I write what I write not to describe a gay relationship, but to 1) relieve my head from the bunny in question and 2) get the attention I can't help but enjoy.

From my POV sex is not only penetration either. But I tend to write that a lot for the simple reason that the mere idea turns my brain into mush. If someone gay thinks that what I write is stupid/unrealistic, they can always tell me so. And I in return can always think about it or tell him that I don't care.

By the way, I am quite interested in reading the whole post. Will you share the link?

[political-poet.livejournal.com]

Right, so I know it's going to come back to haunt me that I haven't read the other comments before writing my own. That being said, I am very political. I'm also a lesbian. However, I don't read slash fiction seeking out political statements on the state of the world. I read it for entertainment. I'm not seeking political correctness. If I were, I wouldn't be into the vast majority of the kinks that I do seek out. Of course being gay isn't about the sex. However, do I want my slash fics to include gay sex? Yes. Do I sit here and worry about the disenfranchisement of the gay culture by slash literature? Hell. No.

For the record, I do support anyone else's right to engage in said worrying, however.

[meninaiscrazy.livejournal.com]

Well, having read gay porn vs slash it's different and the writing style is different. Even the so called 'original' slash. I've seen some writers write more in the style of 'gay' authors but, rarely.

I think most of the time it isn't about the characters being GLBT. Most of the time it's widely acknowledged that most of the characters that are slashed aren't gay per se but, that it's all in the subtext. Which I think is different from a purely GLBT fic which runs under the assumption that they are what they are. Not the whole thing which goes on in slash which is the tension/subtext/wishes/fantasies thing.

It's kind of complicated though and slashers have different motivations for getting into it.

[hearts-n-roses.livejournal.com]

I think it depends on the slash. Not all slash is even about the sex. If we're talking specifically about smutty slash, then I think it has little to do with the characters being gay and more to do with the porn, but I would love to read more where it does.

I would love to read about the dynamic between two male or two female characters, the realistic sex (which often doesn't include penetration, especially between two female characters), the actual issues with coming out and living in a homophobic world, the emotional connections which in a same sex couple can be quite intense, etc. There's a lot of fic out there that includes this but not as many as I would like personally.

[littleroo27.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think slash writing is really that accurate for what "real" sexual experiences are like. I also agree that it's sort of the romanticised "bodice ripping" type of non-reality that we WANT to read. I mean, I've read fics that make fun of harry potter slash (written by slashers) that include all the fumbling and pain and hair in the mouth - and I laugh my ASS off.

Then again, my first time being with my girlfriend, I think we DID laugh about 90% of the time! I mean, have you ever read a harry/draco where Draco can't stop laughing because he's ticklish almost EVERYWHERE? It really breaks the moment!

But, I suppose it would be nice to see a relationship portrayed where they didn't HAVE to have anal sex or maybe they tried it but didn't like it so they spend their evenings discovering OTHER things to do, ya know?

This is totally random, but I'm at work and bored, so yeah :)