Enraged rant on behalf of jedirita

[emmagrant01]

There's something interesting about getting criticism for fic, IMO. If it's my fic, I'm incredibly thick-skinned. If it's a flame, I tend to brush it off like a bit of sweat, and if it's concrit, I eat it up. I love it when people have looked so closely at my writing and have taken the time to tell me what didn't work for them. Even if I don't agree with them, I almost always learn something from their feedback, and it ultimately makes me a better writer.

But this system just breaks apart when a writer I adore and respect gets dissed. Nay, insulted.



I'll be the first to admit I'm biased when it comes to jedirita. She's been my friend (in RL and fandom), beta, and PiC for a year and a half. She was the first person who sent me feedback on the first fic I ever posted anywhere, and she's lovingly mentored me as a writer. Rita is almost entirely responsible for my making it through the twelve steps of Adverb Abusers Anonymous, for example. Rita is the kind of friend and beta who can pinpoint exactly what's missing in my fic. She's not afraid to tell me when something sucks, and reminds me I can do better. I don't have to tell you writers how valuable that is!

Rita is responsible for my entering the HP fandom, BTW. She convinced me that I simply had to read the books, and I finally did last summer. I think I was the one who dragged her kicking and screaming into the world of HP fanfic, but that's another story! ;-)

I've had the privilege of beta-ing for Rita during the time I've known her, as well. Last year, she started working on a beautiful series called Rebel Apprentice. Now as you Star Wars fans know, there was a fabulous series of young-reader novels published by Scholastic called Jedi Apprentice, which told the story of how Obi-Wan Kenobi, from age 13-18, learned to be a Jedi. There's another series called Jedi Quest about Anakin's training, which fills in the time between Episodes 1 and 2.

Rita's idea was brilliant: she would write a series, in the same style, about Princess Leia's teen years. After all, we know from canon that Leia learned to be a Rebel Leader from her father, Bail Organa. Rita wanted to create a series that followed Leia through her teen years and showed us how she came to be the feisty grrl-power princess we see in Episode 4. The first (of what I hope will be many) fic in the series is here. If you haven't read it, you should. It's a wonderful gen story, and it's so perfectly canon, so perfectly in the style of JA and JQ!

Rita decided to submit this fic to an archive hosted by TheForce.net, hereafter referred to as The Evil Empire of the Star Wars Fandom (EESWF). This is a somewhat picky archive, sort of in the same sense that Fiction Alley is picky. Your fic is reviewed by three people, who check it for grammar, characterization, etc. They all vote on whether to accept or reject it, and the majority wins.

The first time Rita submitted her fic, it was rejected because the reviewers thought she used too many "earth" terms. The slashy end of the SW fandom is certainly less picky about that sort of thing than the EESWF is, and Rita, amazingly, rewrote a little of her fic to meet their arbitrary stylistic standards. She took out all references to "paper", for example, since its presence was so horribly offensive and OOC. She then re-submitted it.

And was again rejected. She quotes the rejection letter in her post here.

The thing is, they rejected her fic because of the following:
-- cross-overs with other media and/or Earth
-- grammar and/or spelling errors
-- characterization problems

Now I was one of her betas, and I swear to you, on a stack of holy books of your choice, that fic was NOT riddled with grammatical errors. It was damn near perfect, in fact. I have no idea what language these "reviewers" were using to judge her fic, but fuck me if it was English.

The cross-over issue makes me want to scream! I mean, there is a level of earth-based stuff you try to avoid, but it is often carried to a fucking ridiculous extent in fan and pro fiction, to the point that it distracts from the story in the worst way. I thought Rita did a fabulous job of maintaining a balance of believable story and "realistic" GFFA universe. I argued against making some of the changes she made in the second draft. What did they want her to do, change the word "tree" to something unrecognizeable as an earth object??? Give me a fucking break!

And then, the real kicker is characterization. I just don't know what to say! Did these reviewers even SEE the original Star Wars films? Rita's Leia was spot-fucking-on. You could completely imagine this spunky, yet insecure little girl growing up to kick Imperial ass across the galaxy. Were they offended by having a strong female character portrayed in the Star Wars universe, FOR ONCE?

Okay, I'm a little upset, as you can tell. I just don't understand how something that I regard as a phenomenal story could be rejected by an archive that hosts a shitload of mediocre Padme/Anakin fic.

And then I thought, wait a sec: is this a slash thing? RA isn't slashy, but most of Rita's stuff is, of course. Did the reviewers check her out? Did they look at her website? Did their little homophobic minds recoil at the sight of Bail/Obi lovin'?

It's the only logical explanation. Tell me if you disagree. Shit, tell me if you agree. I want to go and throw fucking rocks at the EESWF right now, though. On jedirita's behalf.

End fucking rant.

Comments

[zhonnika.livejournal.com]

o_O I used to be a reviewer on tfn, way way way back. Talk about your weirdness.

But yeah, uber picky. I don't think even FA is that picky.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

If you have any insights into how that system is supposed to work, I'd appreciate it. How am I supposed to be able to address their picky language issues on my own? How am I supposed to even know what their issue with my characterization was?

Then again, it may be more strict and wacky now than when you were involved.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

How long ago was that, if I might ask? What were the criteria for judging a fic? *is curious*

[clara-posts.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

she's lovingly mentored me as a writer. Rita is almost entirely responsible for my making it through the twelve steps of Adverb Abusers Anonymous, for example. Rita is the kind of friend and beta who can pinpoint exactly what's missing in my fic. She's not afraid to tell me when something sucks, and reminds me I can do better. I don't have to tell you writers how valuable that is!

Me too - and, like you, I admire her writing tremendously. Her Penumbra, for example, was one of the favourite things I've read in this fandom... ever! Likewise, I thought Rebel Apprentice was a wonderful idea, brilliantly executed.

I'm with you on the grammatical errors thing too - Rita is so good with grammar, punctuation etc, that Els and I rely on her to polish up the punctuation on all our writing :o)

The cross-over issue makes me want to scream! ... I argued against making some of the changes she made in the second draft. What did they want her to do, change the word "tree" to something unrecognizeable as an earth object???

Lest we forget people, this is the fandom in which the most famous vehicle is named the Milllenium Falcon and Yoda is training the Great Bear Clan. And I'm sure I've seem a tree in more than one episode ;o)

Were they offended by having a strong female character portrayed in the Star Wars universe, FOR ONCE?

::scratches head::

You think????

I just don't understand how something that I regard as a phenomenal story could be rejected by an archive that hosts a shitload of mediocre Padme/Anakin fic.

Too right - I asked Rita yesterday in her post if all fic on tf.net was subject to this system. I was more than a little surprised when the answer was yes!

And then I thought, wait a sec: is this a slash thing?

Of course it is! I made this suggestion when the first draft was rejected here. One little google search would be enough to check her out and find that she's a slash writer. And we all know how the EESWF feel about 'those' people.

It royally sucks - and I second your entire rant.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Lest we forget people, this is the fandom in which the most famous vehicle is named the Milllenium Falcon and Yoda is training the Great Bear Clan. And I'm sure I've seem a tree in more than one episode ;o)

Absolutely. And can I just say how much I hate GFFA swear words? Like, "stang" and "blast". *shudders*

I'm wondering if it's a clique-ish thing. Rita's said that she's had run-ins with folks there before, after all. Maybe the reviewers aren't coming into this with an open mind. In any case, that archive isn't deserving of Rita's fic!

[qurinas.livejournal.com]

Huh...this is just weird as hell. Having to experience with that site, I can't really give you any insight. But even with Rebel Apprentice being a WIP, I didn't see all that much that needed work. (I still need to read the updated version.) So, assuming those minor things got fixed, I have no idea what their complaint is.

::shrugs::

Oh, and I thought it was kinda slashy, but that was just my L/W wishful thinking, maybe. ;)

That does suck though. I would be mad for your friend if I were you (and I kinda am anyways since this story rocked). But, in my expereince slash/gen SW fandom really don't get a long. So, the idea this could be slash related wouldn't surprise me at all. At all!

I'd love to hear what comes of that...but, until them...don't let them piss you off too much. They are hardly worth it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I thought it was kinda slashy, but that was just my L/W wishful thinking, maybe. ;)

Oh, sweetie, of course you did! Actually, I think Rita had planned for some fem-slashy goodness between Leia and Winter later on, but anything you see in this fic is pure subtext!

I think the reason this pissed me off, in addition to my friend being slighted, was that it was an insult to me, too. How dare they reject a fic that I think is amazing! They're indirectly telling me that *I* don't know good fic when I see it, and I resent that very much.

[thalia]

What I find frustrating is the lack of information in the rejection letter. Especially the characterization thing--wouldn't it be nice to know which characters they have problems with? And Rita's stories *never* have a whole lot of grammar or spelling problems. Tf.n is full of it, from what I can tell.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. At least if it was a "revise and resubmit" sort of thing, like I think they do on FA, it would be reasonable. But just to say "these random and vague things are wrong with your fic and that's why we're rejecting it" -- that doesn't help anyone improve their writing.

[emila-wan.livejournal.com]

Well, I can't help on the earth terms thing, because I didn't see anything like that when I read the fic. As for the characterization ... I think it's on par with Jude Watson and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

Grammar, OTOH. I did notice several quotation marks in the wrong place, especially in part 12. I can't believe they'd reject it for that, but you never know.

It may be paranoid to assume they rejected it just because JediRita also writes slash. Perhaps I'll submit one of my few gen stories and see if they reject it. *G*

The worst part is that they apparently don't provide even a single example of the offense they are talking about. I mean, "earth terms" is easy enough to point out, even if characterization is more fuzzy. Just tell us which fucking terms are so offensive. Don't make us guess! Sheesh.

[clara-posts.livejournal.com]

It may be paranoid to assume they rejected it just because JediRita also writes slash. Perhaps I'll submit one of my few gen stories and see if they reject it. *G*

It would be an interesting social experiment to do this.

Everyone who has gen stories should submit them so we can conduct a controlled experiment :o)

[nike-victory.livejournal.com]

Or try submitting the same thing under a sock puppet...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'll admit to being a little paranoid. But I just can't help but think there's something more going on here. How can one reviewer think this is a professional quality fic, and the other two reject it? There's something really fucked up at TFN.

And yeah, if you're going to reject a fic for particular reasons, at least be specific about what they are. Other tha typos, I'd like to see what grammatical or spelling errors they think are in the fic.

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Oh, y'all make me feel so much better, all the kind words and defense.

I really don't think my other slash stuff is a factor. Three of the six people who have now read my story wrote to tell me they thought it was really good, if only I'd fix the "problems."

But as I'm reading your lovely rant, this is what occurs to me: what they gave was not criticism, it was a summary rejection. How am I possibly to know what they mean by "earth terms?" How am I to know what their issues were with "characterization?" I cannot possible solve these problems when their statement tells me nothing about what their problems were. And the spelling/grammar - I went over that story with a fine tooth comb. Those can only be typos, and I can only imagine there are maybe half a dozen in the whole story that still managed to slip by me.

I really should just give it up. But I love that story so much and would love to see it on such a big archive. But I'm thinking it's not going to happen. Instead I can post it to the places jedi_diplomat has been suggesting, and at the end say, "Tf.n rejected this story twice!" Just to stick it to 'em.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know I love you, right?

what they gave was not criticism, it was a summary rejection.

I know, and that's what screams bullshit to me. I can't help but think there's something more going on here, even if it isn't the anti-slash bias I mentioned above. (I was angry, I'll admit...) It just feels personal, somehow. Like I commented somewhere above, I can't help but take it a little personally. It feels like a slap in the face to me that they rejected a fic I think is so amazing. It's like they're indirectly saying I don't know good fic when I see it.

Their loss, ultimately. I just wish your fic could be on a big archive where more people could read it and see how amazing it is!

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

No, I still think it's a terminal case of bigheadedness. I did write today to the editor who sent me my "rejection" and the reviewer who had emailed me privately saying not only was s/he recommending it, but thought it was of professional quality. This is what my lone yea voter wrote back:

I understand how much better it makes a
person feel to get a personalized
letter with reasons for rejection specifically
detailed, but you should see
our list of submissions right now. We're just
too backed up. This kind of
letter is what you get from a literary magazine
if you're lucky. Most of the
time in the pro world all you get is a form post
card saying, "thank you for
submitting but your story does not meet our needs
at this time." They don't even
give you a clue what they didn't like, and they
definitely won't write you
back about it if you ask. But I think the two
TFN staff reviewers will.

Isn't that generous of them? Don't you feel sorry for them because they have SO MANY stories to read? Don't I feel honored to have had them even consider my story in the first place?

In a word, NO.

[eliminate.livejournal.com]

Those people are fucking bastards. Do you mind if I have a link to that fic? It seems interesting and I'd really like to read it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I linked to it in the text above, but here it is again: http://www.wyomingnot.com/rita/ra/ra00.html. Enjoy!

[eliminate.livejournal.com]

Thank you XD!

[inyadreems.livejournal.com]

First of all I find it hard to believe that anyone could reject anything written by Rita. Like you said, she's a chuffing great writer.

But I find it interesting that Bonny and I were discussing only yesterday the use of made-up terms in fics for everyday things. Eg transparisteel. Plascrete. Durasteel. Stupid terms. Unwieldy and awkward, and still referring to "earth" terms.

Ennaway. I wonder if the fic would have been accepted if it had been submitted under another name.

(Chuck some rocks for me.)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know -- I hate some of the pseudo-terms in the profic. And don't get me started on the shittiness of NJO: battle, after battle, after battle, with no character development whatsoever. Good grief! Give me fan fic any day!

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I think the whole thing with made up terms is often bordering on ridiculous. This is, after all, a galaxy far, far away. Where they don't speak English. Which means that everything we read is assumed to be translated into English. I translate for a living. I don't leave in half the words in Japanese; that makes no sense.

Sure you shouldn't have graduations and cheerleaders (to borrow a popular HP complaint) but there are plenty of times where assuming that the English word used refers to a similar term in Coruscantese or whatever it is they speak makes reading easier than inventing a new term would. A little here and there for flavor, fine, but people are so eager to take it to extremes.

[angelofmercy.livejournal.com]

I'm a current reviewer over there *ignores the booing/hissing* and after glancing at a couple chapters, I'm shocked that this fic was rejected. Some one fucked up big time unless they don't think Leia was a teenager...
I can't speak for the other reviewers, but going on past rejections, I think that they'd consider the fishing, algebra, and little things like that.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I was wondering (after the fact, sheepishly) if anyone on my f-list was a reviewer for them. Thanks for commenting here, actually! I'm really curious about the standards used for reviewing fics there. I don't mean grammar and such (because I truly don't know what the reviewers were complaining about in this situation), but the use of "earth terms" in the fic.

The funny thing is that the SW films aren't that picky! As someone pointed out elsewhere, Owen calls Beru his "girlfriend" in AOTC. I'm thinking that word wouldn't have made it past this reviewer.

My point is that it seems arbitrary. In many cases (IMHO), the use of alternate terms in a fic can distract from the story more than it helps create a GFFA feeling. For example, I talked to Rita a lot about what sort of mathematics Leia would be doing in the beginning when I was beta-ing this. I brought up the idea of making it more general (as the separate study of school algebra is almost exclusively an American thing), but she was looking for a way for young readers to connect with Leia in that scene. She was using the word algebra on purpose.

This was got me thinking about the whole Brit-picking issue too, though, because this is a case in which the standards seem arbitrary. There isn't a real place called the GFFA we can go look at to see if we've got the words and dialogue right. There aren't any real experts who can check our work for us to flag earth terms. Different people are going to object to different things, and the irony is that the films and pro-novels have plenty of earth terms themselves, so those aren't even good examples to follow. The reviewers rejected her story for earth terms the first time, and she took a lot of them out. Of course, they didn't give her any specific criticism, so she was left wondering how much was enough. She had to guess what they wanted, which is a ridiculous position to be in as a writer.

I suppose there's also the issue of quality, here. In a mediocre fic, those details would be more distracting, IMO. If the story or the quality of the writing weren't so good, lots of things related to writing style would probably jump out at me as a reader. But I firmly believe this was a great story, and to pick out a handful of words and say, "We're rejecting your story because of these arbitrary words" seems like a cop out.

And last time around, no one had any issues with grammar, or characterization. It was hard to think they weren't just looking for a reason to say no.

Anyway, if you have any insight on the process, it would actually be very interesting to hear about!