On marriage proposals and the weird sexism within

[emmagrant01]

In the last month, two women I know got engaged to their long-time boyfriends. Both women are 35, have never been married before, had been in these relationships for at least five years, and had been living with their boyfriends for at least three years. In both cases, their boyfriends staged elaborate marriage proposals, and both of these women cried tears of happiness at the proposal.

And in both cases, the women themselves and their friends and family all said, "FINALLY. It's about time he popped the question."

In other words, they were sitting around and waiting for the man to decide it was time to get married.  And I don't get that; I really, truly don't.

Maybe I should tell a bit of my own story here. I've been married to my male partner for 18 years. Prior to getting married, we lived together for 5 years. A few years into our cohabitation, we started discussing the long term prospects of our relationship. I honestly don't know who brought the subject up first (this was 20 years ago), but I recall that we had lots of conversations over the course of a year about what we wanted out of life, where we saw ourselves in 10 years, what our career and family goals were, and so on. It became an implicit assumption that we would get married eventually.

When I was in my 5th (of 6, long story) year of university, I read or heard somewhere that it takes a year to plan and organize a wedding. I was a little over a year from graduating, and that seemed like as good a time as any to have a wedding. So at the next opportunity, I told my boyfriend, "We should get married the weekend I graduate. That way our families won't have to make the trip out twice." (We lived a long way from either of our families.) He shrugged and said, "Okay, cool." A few days later he said, "Should we buy you a ring or something?" I almost said no, but then thought, "Hell, why not?" That made it seem more official, somehow.

So we went out that weekend and bought a sensible little ring, nothing terribly fancy, and then decided we should probably tell our families and friends that we were engaged. And every one of them immediately wanted to know how he'd "popped the question," clearly expecting some over-the-top story of romance and happy tears. When I said, "He didn't, we just agreed to get married," they all seemed really uncomfortable, like we had somehow done this all wrong.

That was 20 years ago, and it still baffles me that, at least in the US, there is an expectation that the male partner in a heterosexual couple is the one who decides when it's time to get married. Apparently the woman is supposed to wait and hope that she will be fortunate enough to be chosen. And that just... I can't even wrap my brain around it.

Last time I checked, marriage is a partnership between equals. Why should half of that partnership get absolutely no say in how and when it becomes codified and recognized by the state and society? Marriage is not something to go into lightly. It requires hard work and commitment and maintenance, and both people should have a chance to think long and hard about whether or not this is something they want to do. The basic idea of a traditional heterosexual marriage proposal, when you think about it, is that the man has time to think about whether or not he wants to commit to this woman, and makes the decision to move forward.  He then purchases an expensive ring, apparently proof that he has enough financial resources to be a good provider, and stages a special ceremony to ask her to marry him. She is expected to respond immediately, with no time to think or reflect. The romance of the moment and the surprise nature of the proposal seem almost designed to catch her off-guard and encourage her to accept without thinking very hard about it.

Maybe it's just me, but I find that whole scenario a bit creepy, and more than a little sexist. Yes, I know of women who have similarly proposed to their male partners, but that scenario is rare.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, and I recognize that many people will probably disagree with me on this. I don't mean to imply that couples who decide to marry in this traditional way have somehow done it wrong, or are doomed to divorce, or have betrayed feminism, or anything like that. I am also aware that this is not how marriage proposals go for everyone and that there are shades of gray between the two extremes I've outlined. YMMV, etc.

Crossposted to Tumblr here.

Comments

[mijan.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you said. Pretty much... yeah. Everything.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Hi, you! How are you? What are you up to these days?

[coendou.livejournal.com]

I get you not getting it. I guess I can see doing the "waiting around" thing in certain circumstances - where you're really not that bothered about whether you get married or not or when, and you're happy just chilling until they make the first move. But if you're saying "It's about time!" then it doesn't sound like that applies.

In our case, I was applying to PhD programs and he was applying to postdocs. We had no idea if we'd get them in the same cities (we didn't), and if we didn't then there was a good chance I'd take a year off to live with him before starting my program. No way in hell was I putting off grad school for him after 4 years of dating without a solid commitment.

So if he hadn't said anything about it by the time we started getting offers, I was going to bring it up (and by bring it up, I basically mean an ultimatum - look, either you're ready to make this permanent or else it's over and I'm going to grad school). Which is sort of "waiting around", but with a very set timeline of just a few months mostly to feel things out and see if he was thinking about it enough to bring it up first, or more clueless than that. As it turned out, he brought it up well before that, we discussed it very happily, we spent a couple weeks looking at rings, and then he proposed (and still managed to make it a surprise, since I didn't know he'd actually bought one of the rings I liked) and we were married six months later. And yeah, it still involved him getting down on one knee and "popping the question," but that's more about being suckers for sweet traditions than anything else. We'd already discussed it pretty thoroughly and mutually by then.

[geneva2010.livejournal.com]

My husband's brother was living with a lovely woman, and he was perfectly happy with things as they were. She was (still is) a spitfire, though, and laid it on the line. After about a year or two she said, we are either getting married or this is going to be over. They got married and it's been a long and productive partnership.

[geneva2010.livejournal.com]

I 100% agree with everything you said. And not just the decision to marry, but the over the top proposals, and large weddings with the woman the center of all attention for the best day of her life, is not a scenario I'm at all comfortable with. A waste of money as far as I'm concerned.

Actually, I've heard of some lovely over the top proposals, but they were always where the couple knows they are going to marry, but the guy just puts in the effort, and usually involves the family in the celebration, too. I believe I read that Melissa [edit: Sarah] Gilbert put in a similar effort when proposing to her partner, so not just the guys.

When I fell in love with my husband it was mutually agreed that we were going to marry, too. I honestly can't remember who brought it up. We planned and dreamed together. He gave me his mother's engagement ring on the train to a vacation in Key West. 33 years later we've been through the ups and downs, we've got two gorgeous kids, but I still don't have any expensive jewelry! Wait, I think maybe I did something wrong there. ;D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

33 years! That's fantastic! Go you!

I have a cousin several times removed who staged a huge proposal for his girlfriend, and then they had a massive and expensive wedding. Within a month of the wedding, they separated. It turned out that she had cold feet from the beginning, but got swept up in the romance of it all, and by the time she realized she didn't want to marry him, it was too late. They were really young, and I think they just hadn't had enough time to think about it.

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I had an almost identical experience (except we lived together for seven years). I think this is primarily a marketing ploy. You are not legitimately married unless you live that whole fantasy, and drop $30,000 while you are at it. What people spend on rings shocks me.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know! The wedding industry is huge, and it seems like such a waste of money. We paid for our wedding ourselves, and it was a small family affair. We wanted to spend more money on an exotic honeymoon. But even if my parents had offered to pay for it, I wouldn't have asked for a big wedding. That's not me, for one thing, but I think I would have rather had the money for a down payment on a house or something!

When my sister got married (10 years after we did), her wedding was so elaborate. She had a bridal blog on a wedding website, and she had all these bells and whistles going on. I forgot to get a manicure the week of my wedding, and I remember borrowing a nail file from my mom while we were taking pictures so that I could make my hands look decent for a photograph of our rings.

[liesbyomission.livejournal.com]

This really, really strikes a chord with me.

I haven't really talked about this much, but here goes. I've been with my boyfriend for ~7 years now. A few years ago he asked me to marry him, and I was totally blindsided. I don't remember exactly what I said because I pretty much panicked, something like "not yet." It really hurt, and we had a rough time of it for a while. We had moved in together not long ago and we were having a difficult time adjusting, and he couldn't find a job, so we were already a bit tenuous. So it was bad, and we almost didn't recover. To be honest, on the anniversary of that day every year, it hurts, and I don't know if it ever won't.

We went a long time without really discussing that day or marriage again, but we've started talking about it again. (Basically hinging on whether or not I want kids, because currently I have no idea.) It really needs to be a mutual agreement, in my opinion, as you said with discussions of family/career plans.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That's something I've heard before, that a lot of women feel pressured into saying yes and getting married, because they're supposed to at that point. If they say no, the relationship often ends, because the guy was humiliated, etc. It's so weird to me that you should be expected to make a life-altering decision on the spot, with no time to reflect about what you really want. I know it's not always that way, maybe not even usually, but yeah. :-P

[heinous_bitca.livejournal.com]

Chalk one up in the rare column here. I proposed to my husband, went out and got a ring for him and everything. It was a surprise, but not unexpected, perhaps. I had told him up front when we moved in together that I wanted to live with someone a full year before marrying them. That way, you get to see them in every season, to make sure that you are fully compatible.

He always jokes that he didn't know I meant "a year to the DAY," because we moved in together in October and a year later in November I proposed. He also said he didn't propose because he was afraid I would say no.

Now, we've changed a lot in our years together, grown a lot closer, and I think he'd NOW be fine with proposing, but at the time, we hadn't been together that long. A good thing happened to us when a bad thing happened to his family. His brother, just about a year into his first marriage, left his wife for another woman. This caused us to talk a lot about what we wanted out of life, out of our lives together. His brother may have never really had those talks, as his wife then wanted to get a house, and then the 2.5 kids, and he just wanted to be together, like we were. (Amusingly enough, his 2nd wife left him, and he ended up back with the first wife a few years later, and they now have 2 kids.)

Your story reminds me of my mom and dad, however. I recall asking my mom about dad's proposal, and she said he never did. It was just assumed she'd go with him when he graduated from college. That was back in the 50s, though. I think unconventional then, perhaps.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Now I have a concrete example to point to!

My paternal grandparents got married in secret. They crossed the state line to get married in a state where you didn't need a blood test, and then they kept it secret for several months, each continuing to live on their own. I asked my grandmother why they did that and she said she couldn't remember, it was just what people did. I think it might have been a way to legitimize sex, but I'm not sure.

[damn-imasquib.livejournal.com]

I always like to say I am not in anyone else's marriage besides my own. So I think your opinions are completely valid for you. I know that 21 years later I still give my husband shit about our "proposal". We were very young, he received his acceptance letter to a college we would both be transferring to, it was several hours away from where we grew up, I said I wouldn't live with him, he said, "Let's go look at rings." And done. But, just like the wedding, the only truly important thing for me was, we walked out married. That's what I tell people getting married now. They can get so wrapped up in the proposal, in the ceremony, in the reception, but really, the only important thing is that you are married. And of course, that is only really important if it is important to you. LOL.
Melissa

[belleweather.livejournal.com]

We had a tough time of it, marriage proposal-wise, and it's one of the few real regrets either of us have about our relationship.

Basically, for various non-religious non-sex hating reasons I DO NOT believe in living together longterm before engagement/serious commitment. *donning asbestos underwear* (Althugh I do believe in lots and lots of sex before marriage and sleepovers?) Seriously, I'd seen it go wrong for a number of my friends who either went into living together too early (for financial/ease of sex-having reasons) and broke up, which ended up being epic and painful what with the having to live together until the lease was up reasons, or ended up in these terrible relationships that were held together only by the inertia of living together. I didn't want that for myself, so no moving in together.

Except that I gave up my apartment 6 months after we started dating to go to Europe and when I got back he was broke and unemployed and would be spending all his time at my house anyway, and it was a whole debate about rent and freeloading and yada yada yada. So we got handfasted, which was a reasonable option and helped me feel better about it, but there was no formal plan to get married. I really wanted him to ask me, he really wanted to ask but wanted to buy the ring ahead of time and have a big production but he was 23 and broke and unemployed (it's very luck ywe had an epic love at first sight romance straight out of a soul-bonding fic because otherwise I'd've had nothing to do with him and made the biggest mistake of my life!). Eventually, he proposed to me during an argument about whether he should propose to me or not. *facepalm*.

He regrets not just asking when he had a perfect opportunity and I regret being a screaming bitch about it and letting money push me into doing something I wasn't 100% ready for emotionally. Obviously, we've survived but I did learn that while I like romantic gestures, they're really not as important as the underlying relationship. I really worry about the marital futures of people who insist on big products for those kind of things because I think appreciating the everyday is a key to having a successful marriage. I just wish our wedding culture cultivated that a bit more.

[helens78]

Ooooh, a lot of interesting thoughts there! For me, what's most surprising is how much value (many, though not all) women put into the whole "system" -- they want an elaborate proposal, they want to be surprised by when it happens (even if they've already discussed with their partner that they want to get married), they want the fancy expensive ring. A lot of women even want to have their partners ask their fathers for their "hand" in marriage, and would be upset if that didn't happen!

Me, I didn't want the proposal to be a surprise. XD When Grant and I were ready to get engaged, he said, "So how would you like to be proposed to?"

"I'd like to go out ring shopping, and then go out to dinner, and have you get down on one knee and ask me."

"Okay. ...Want to go ring shopping and then to dinner tonight?"

^_^

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

My aunt's third husband asked my grandfather for her 'hand'. She was 50-something at the time, but he was 36 and it was his first marriage. IIRC he proposed to her in armour on horseback. My grandfather, having already seen her through 2 messy divorces, thought it all a bit ridiculous, but the poor guy wanted it to be all grand and romantic SO BADLY. It was all a bit awkward for everyone, though he's a decent guy at least.

[elenauial.livejournal.com]

Yup. All this. Not to mention the original symbolism of ownership behind a wedding ring...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, seriously. :-P

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I so so wish everyone had this attitude. It seems that the pervasive thought in our culture is that if the woman "has to" propose, this is because the guy really isn't all that interested in marriage and everything's doomed to failure--how tragic is that? :(

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. I so dislike the idea that men get to decide when they;re getting married, and women have to wait and hope someone proposes. It's obviously not that way all the time, but it's just enough of a holdover from the time that women were property that I can't help but find it a little creepy.

[drarryisgreen]

I completely agree w/ you and HATE the idea of the woman waiting around for the man to decide the right time -- and I love your story of how it happened for you. That's how it'll probably happen to me and my partner.

Also I recently heard of a guy who goes to University w/ my partner and he said that his GF proposed to him and gave him a watch. He was stoked and said yes and I think they bought a ring for her eventually or something.

:D

[vampireanneke.livejournal.com]

I figured the man proposed only after it was decided that the two would be getting married. The whole big production for such is just silly. My sister's boyfriend of 6+ years is basically family at this point, and we tease him that he's just waiting for her to propose. Which will likely be how it goes. Then she and I were raised to be very independent females.

[etakyma.livejournal.com]

Most of what I know of my brother and sister-in-law's official engagement I pieced together because my brother is the taciturn type and never says anything. But they must have discussed it together because he knew she wanted to wear her grandmother's engagement ring as her own (an absolutely gorgeous kinda deco-ish square cut diamond ring), and it was kept in her parent's safe deposit box at the bank.

So they must have mutually decided when and where because she had to prod her mother into getting the ring out of the box "in time." Then they (my brother and sister in law), went hiking (October in New England - lots of lovely leafs to peep at) up Mt. Manadnock, and at the top they became officially engaged to be married. She brought the ring so she could wear it on the hike down. No idea if he got down on one knee or not. That was fifteen years ago.

They're both pretty thoughtful people, and if he talks to anyone he talks to her (goodness knows he doesn't actually talk to me or our parents). I can't even imagine him "popping" the question out of the blue - and I can't imagine her sitting around waiting for it to happen without saying a word. After all, she was the one who decided he was going to be hers way back when twenty-some years ago!

[swissmarg]

I think part of it is the general thought that men are afraid of commitment and that women are always willing to get married. Not that either of those stereotypes are true, but I think it's part of the idea behind the man being the one traditionally to do the proposing. It's like if the woman does it then she's being pushy. But that's an outsider's point of view, and obviously (hopefully) the people actually in the relationship will know each other well enough to gauge whether suggesting/proposing they get married will be taken in a positive way. I agree that any woman who's 'waiting' for the man to propose if marriage is what she wants, needs to sit down and have a nice productive talk with her partner. I wonder how it plays out in gay couples, if there are more of the discussion-general concensus type of situation like you describe with your husband, or if there are also lots of 'surprise' down-on-one-knee proposals? As for us, I basically told my now-husband it would be a good idea for us to get married before Switzerland changed the law so that citizenship was no longer immediate upon marriage (it changed as of Jan 1 1992, before that any woman who married a Swiss man automatically became a Swiss citizen but a man who married a Swiss woman didn't, talk about sexist; now no one gets citizenship through marriage). And so we got married a couple of weeks later and we didn't do the ring thing and it's been 21 years.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm sure that plays into it, but honestly, most of it is a holdover from the time when women were property to be exchanged between men. Grooms ask the bride's father for her hand in marriage (and in most cases where people take this tradition seriously, the groom really does talk to the dad first!), and fathers "give" their daughters away at the wedding. Women traditionally took their husbands' names because they became his property, and in many places until fairly recently, they lost quite a few personal rights upon marriage. The bride's family pays for the wedding, as a thank you to the groom for taking her on. Even traditional wedding vows had women agreeing to obey their husbands. And so on. All of these things that look so romantic are vestiges of a very misogynistic patriarchal culture. I guess that's part of what makes it hard for me to find many of these things romantic. :-P

Interesting that the laws used to be that way in Switzerland. Why was it so one-sided before?

[winstonmom.livejournal.com]

My proposal was a total surprise, we dated for maybe 4 1/2 months and then he proposed. We are Mormon* and it is pretty much within the Mormon culture to have short engagements and quick weddings. We never lived together until we got married and just had minor arguments when it came to where things were located in the kitchen :) Our wedding was 7 months later. That happened almost 16 years ago. I honestly never was one to dream of a huge proposal or wedding. I took my tax return of $75 to buy the material for a dress that a friend's mom made for me, and my engagement ring was simple and nice. I never gave too much thought about weddings and proposals, but again I was almost 30 when I got married and really valued being independent.

** I like to call myself a open minded, liberal Mormon even though that sounds like a contradiction :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The wedding stories I find most romantic are the ones like this, where two people decided they wanted to be together and then got married in a personal, simple, meaningful way. Not that big-ass weddings aren't inherently meaningful; obviously they are meaningful to the people having them or they wouldn't spend that kind of money. But it's the stories like this that make me smile and say, "Awww."

[thesardine.livejournal.com]

This is coming from someone who doesn't see why people get married at all anymore, it just seems pointlessly ceremonial and archaic, except for maybe tax purposes I guess? But I understand that marriage does mean at least something to a lot of people, and I don't think it's creepy to want someone important to you to put some thought and effort into a caring and ostensibly significant gesture. That's like...I mean, I know my mother really, really values mother's day, and it's important to her that she feels loved on that day and is celebrated in a traditional manner with flowers and phone calls, etc. even if we can't be with her on that day. I can do that for my mother, even if I don't necessarily need that for any reason for myself. When it comes to proposals, that's something that, depending of course on the individual, makes someone feel wanted and appreciated in a way that men don't generally seek out or need. I say this obviously with emphasis on "generally." Generally, women are better at making people feel wanted and appreciated all the time, it's just social wiring. Men could stand to learn to be better at this, but a marriage proposal is one way in which all the steps have been spelled out for them so they don't feel lost in emotionally unfamiliar territory. They know what they're "supposed" to do, and take pleasure in being able to provide it. It's a satisfying moment for both parties, but this is taken at the value of JUST that moment - whether or not they discussed it beforehand, or if she was waifishly waiting around for it is another story, one that can't really be summed up in the gesture of a proposal itself. When these women say "finally popped the question," that's a glib retelling that doesn't sum up the emotional significance of the moment, and it's simplistic to take those words at face value.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I didn't go into a heck of a lot of detail about these women because this is a public post. The chances of them stumbling across it are remote, but I didn't want them to be in any way recognizable. I'll just say that my assessment of the situation was not a glib one. This is pretty much the way it played out in both cases. As my disclaimer states above, I know that these are extreme and there are lots of other ways proposals can play out. The fact that these two events happened in close proximity to each other is what got me thinking about this and prompted this post.

[pern-dragon.livejournal.com]

My husband (earlier this month we celebrated getting married 17 years ago!) and I started out as no-strings friends with benefits, and a few days in we realized we needed to talk because we had both developed serious feelings beyond what we had agreed to. We got together on April Fools Day--how auspicious, eh? LOL We knew within a few months that this was it, and we were as good as engaged then. However, we wanted to make it official, so I bought him a silver Batman ring and gave it to him on Halloween, when we called my parents to tell them we were engaged (we thought it was the next most appropriate holiday after an April Fools start), so we could tell them there was a ring exchanged. *snerk*

We couldn't afford anything major, and we went trawling pawn shops where we found a 1/4 carat round solitaire in a simple gold band for $150. Once we bought it and had it sized, we went to dinner (at Chili's, dontcha know) and he "officially" asked me to marry him there at the table, holding my hand across it. And of course, the server interrupted! LOL

We wanted to get a house and I was graduating from Uni that May, so we arranged to get married with a Justice of the Peace in front of the LBJ fountain on UT campus the day after I graduated. We then continued planning the wedding for Labor Day Sunday back in Maryland. So, we celebrate all three anniversaries: April 1, when we got together; May 19, when we got married; and September 1, when we had the wedding!

It was a mutual decision and we were content with everything low key. I DID enjoy the wedding, mainly because it was an excuse for a huge family party, where my cousin made the cake, my aunts catered a southern home cooking buffet through my parents' country store, my brother did the videography, my uncle did a reading, my sister-in-law's father did the photography, my cousins helped decorate the firehouse, and the same DJ that did my sweet sixteen party (and was a family fave) did the reception! I also got to design my dress and had my friend make it for me. All told, it was a blast and I loved it not being froufy and pretentious. ;D

I love seeing that other people were able to enjoy coming together without it having to be so fraught, like you pointed out. *happy memories* <3

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I keep forgetting that you used to live in Austin! Did we ever overlap? I don't think we did. (We've had that conversation before, IIRC.)

We also celebrate the anniversary of our first date! It was on New Year's Eve, though, so that makes it an easy date to remember.

[agr8fae.livejournal.com]

totally agree. what really worries me is that so many people still think it's weird for a woman to even ask a man out, let alone do anything beyond that. Because heaven forbid women express attraction when they're attracted. /sarcasm.

[ariadnechan.livejournal.com]

Awesome weddings!

and i'm agree with you.

I live in Chile and i'm married for 11 years and i lived with my husband seven years previous so 18 years!

In my country the engagement ring is a new thing from the movies.
But here they are very traditionalist and male drive society and catholic is the main religion. (we are not as the US catholics, because no one is that into religion really, except obviously the normal section of the population in a poll no matter the religion they are in and some of the upper class who are catholic recalcitrant for some strange reason, so against even the Pill and make us pay for their beliefs. *sigh*

Well so in 1992 I was studding Law at uni(we had no college we enter at uni, who is longer) and my husband now was studding programming at an institute. We met in an AD&D convention we both were masters in. Sparkles flies but he had a girlfriend, so we made friends, and we met to time to time in inter-university and institute rolplaying conventions and with some friends groups, and when he appeared without a girlfriend i had a boyfriend so this went out until March 1995 when we found each other partnerless ;)

then it was pretty quick, maybe too quick for me, I wanted to finish my university degree and bachelor degree (they give you both together) before thinking in marry, having kids and stuff.

so when in may he said, marry me i panicked and i said

"What??? OH NO!!"

my parents got married after 3 months of been together and it was awful, there was no divorce in my country and they made their life miserable and my bro and sis and mine miserable as well. Hell he came from a family who also married quickly and his father abandon them in his fifth b-day a week 3 months after her little sister comeback with his mother from the hospital. So NO!

so i said to him that i love him, and we could live together if he wanted, i didn't want to end our relationship at all, but i could no marry someone who i didn't know so well, who didn't know me so well and i didn't finished uni so i said if we want to still after i finish uni, then we marry if you feel the need because i can't see why the paper is so important.

finally he accept, but we had a terrible first year. After a lot of adjusting and getting that we really loved each other (we were really poor), we continue, but everybody were against us, because we were not married.
in Uni people see me funny and gossiped behind my back. my father didn't talk to me in 6 years. Everybody was like but why you live in sin, if you are both single??

[ariadnechan.livejournal.com]

well the thing is that I finished the courses of uni (always working i had to suspend one year, i had horrible marks and my Carrier is annual not for semesters) but for getting the degree it was 3 years more and maybe more, because the last exam it was personal and oral exam questions answers face to face with the examiners take all the credits of the carrier in one exam and that count at 50% of the whole thing.

I did my memory, i did my 8 months work for free, attending cases of poor people in court (it is one of the requirements)and did the exam 2 times and i failed. the last time, one of the teachers ask me a think of his book, and i didn't knew i had that teacher until two days before, not time to read all the books of that lawyer. and for that only they made me fail. I was devastated and i forgot "A PILL" i get pregnant and pregnant women can't do the exam for law school! What? no they can't!

so i was in my seven month of pregnancy and saw my partner of almost six years present me to a distant cousin as his girlfriend and i was What??!!

and then is when i get that my poor husband never given up to be married, and have a proper wedding at the church, with the family and all that jazz.

so i proposed, but i said i wanted to married after the baby was a little older so he can go to the wedding to. He was crying! really

So i wait for my tax check it was very little really and no one in my family help me in anything except my sister who make the cake and the boyfriend of my mother in law who give us the rings(mine never fitt well, lol) and i contracted a very little place all very cheap but i try to make the best of it. And i stayed with the baby while my mother in law insisted in taking my husband away the day before?? Idk why? really because we have been living together 6 years and had a baby!

and everyone congratulate my baby for saving his parents from sin!
My mother in law said she won't seat in our table because she will seat with her family, that day rained like it hadn't until today really today! because we married the 25 of may, and all the classes for children were canceled today 28, because of the rivers that are streets now, like the day my husband and i marry!

My husband cried more in the ceremony. I made my own flower arrangement, my mother and sister couldn't make it for the church because of the rain, but they made it for the reception(we had to do 1 hour time in TGIFridays, so someone go to rescue them and take them to the reception, two cars and a van got stuck in water so i had to send another to rescue the rescuers)
but here we are happy and married 11 years and living together for 18 and we celebrated 3 times a year!
and we are poor still because we hadn't a home at our name but we have 2 beautiful sons!

[kizzia.livejournal.com]

Right, cards on that table first - I'm divorced.
Second. My ex and I had all the discussions you talked about and mutually decided that - we were living together at Uni at the time - that we wanted to buy a house together when we graduated but I said that I didn't want to get married right then as the house was the bigger commitment and we already knew we wanted to be together and I couldn't see the point in spending the money. He agreed and then two months later, when we on holiday in Wisconsin (he'd spent a year at Uni there and wanted me to meet all his friends) he proposed. I can't actually remember what he said but I was completely blindsided, amazed that he actually wanted to make the commitment and shocked that he'd ask after I'd said I didn't think we needed to. But he'd asked, and everyone in the restaurant was looking at us and the small voice inside me that I hadn't yet learnt was sheer insecurity, said that I should want this, that I should say yes and besides, who else would want me ... And I said yes. He took me ring shopping the next day and then we spent two years and a lot of my parents money (I'm mum's only child and they wanted to) on a really lovely wedding.
I have it say I had a fabulous time at my wedding, loved every second of it and would - without the marrying part - do it again in a heart best.
However I knew before I married him I was making a mistake but I convinced myself it was preceding jitters and then, each time after that I knew things weren't working, told myself that marriages weren't fairy tales and that they take work and I did my best. Except marriages are partnerships, you BOTH have to want them work and you both have to want them to work. And what I'd failed to see back when we were having those talks was that he was saying what he thought I wanted to hear to get what he wanted. And he continued to do that. All the way through, thing was, saying something and actually meaning it and acting on it are two different things.
To cut a long story short, I shouldn't have married him and I should be never has let him behave the way he did towards to me for so long. I completely enabled him to, if we're going to completely honest about it, emotionally and mentally abuse me and that I should have stood up to him long before - or just left. As it happened, when I stand up and say "No, I'm not accepting this any more, I won't let you treat me like this" when he started to push the point about having children (which I'd resisted up until that point out of a hitherto undiscovered sense of self preservation) and insisted he start behaving like an adult about money and what he expected of me domestically he left me within six months.
Sorry, that was rambling and what I'd meant to say was, yes'm I agree with everything you've said and that I think the archaic view of marriage does linger and inform some people's expectations and that can be dangerous. I also think that you can make mistakes even if you think you're being mature and sensible about it all - especially when you look back and wonder how you ever got out of bed with as little self confidence as I had back then and shake my head at the horrific belief I'd managed to hold that I needed a partner just to be a whole person.
Needless to say I'm not that girl any more, and all the better for it.

[woldy]

I totally agree with you - the way most women behave around marriage is bizarre and usually makes me think less of them. Why an intelligent, highly capable woman who is quite capable of organizing meetings, giving major presentations etc. would sit around waiting for someone else to decide they should get married is beyond me. I feel the same way about women giving up their names, especially when it means a loss of the name recognition / personal brand in their career.

I asked my (male) partner if he wanted to marry me while we were sitting on the couch. No engagement rings were bought. We both thought it over for a few weeks before telling our friends & family. It was, in my view, a far saner way to proceed.

[holyfant.livejournal.com]

How interesting. It's definitely more than a bit ridiculous to go "Well, it's about time!" when you haven't given any clear indication that you want your partner to propose. No one in my group of friends that is in my age bracket has got married yet, but I know of some couples who've been together for 7-8 years now who are talking about it - and they are definitely talking about it. One of my best friends has been with her boyfriend since they were 14, they've been living together for 2 years now, and she recently said they were planning to get married after they both graduate university. She did say that she hopes that he asks her "officially" at some point, so she does sort of expect him to do it, and I'm sure she'd appreciate a romantic dinner or something, but it's definitely not like they haven't talked to each other about what they want and when they want it. It seems like most couples who are in that stage in my environment are doing it that way. I also know plenty of long-term couples who don't intend to marry at all. I can't see any of my friends just waiting around for their partners to propose without bringing it up themselves. It'd be a bit mind-boggling if they did that, really. :p

I'm also reading some of the comments here that say that people have given their partners ultimatums of the "either we get married or this ends" variety and I must say, that seems incredibly strange to me. (Not to knock those people's M.O.'s, of course!) Marriage is pretty unpopular with young people here right now, and there are loads of couples I know who have been together for going on 10-15 years with children who aren't married and don't intend to. Most of them have closed cohabitation agreements that grant them legal and judicial rights as partners without marriage. The whole idea of a couple needing to get married in order for the relationship to be a committed one definitely isn't something that's ingrained in our culture anymore, it seems.

[oligomer.livejournal.com]

Hell yes. I agree with this 100%.

It is almost as annoying as getting the "when will you get married?" interrogation from strangers.

[jperceval.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm pretty much with you. My husband and I mutually decided on marriage, and mainly for fiscal advantages -- so romantic! I got that wedding planned in under 3 months for around $6,000 total -- unheard of, and yet it was still absolutely lovely. Hell, we didn't even have a registry (which might be my one do-over so I wouldn't have had to contend with 2 coffee makers, 3 Crock-pots, and 2 food processors, LOL). The price tag did not include the engagement ring, which the mister did make a bit of a production getting and giving to me, but again, just a sweet thing between the two of us, not some staged shit with violins and hearts and flowers.

Fourteen years this July we're still together, when friends of ours who went the elaborate way are split up. Not that I'm saying it has any bearing on things, perhaps, but I'm just throwing it out there.