Interesting post on the plot of ROTJ

[emmagrant01]

This was linked to from metafandom, and I found it interesting. The post is about how the revelation that Luke and Leia were siblings brought down the plot of ROTJ because the suddenly-incestuous sexual tension between Luke and Leia was totally swept under the rug and not dealt with, as it should have been in any reasonable characterization.

I found it really interesting because that genuinely disturbed me as a kid. Before ROTJ I was a big Luke/Leia shipper and wrote lots of fic (and subsequently acted the fics out with my Barbies) featuring the two of them romantically entwined. I was ten, so all of this was relatively innocent, but the funny thing is that after ROTJ I didn't stop writing it. It seemed to me that the sexual tension between them couldn't just dissolve overnight. Luke had the hots for Leia for years, and how could that turn into sisterly affection so quickly? I'd read Splinter of the Mind's Eye. I knew I wasn't delusional.

So at the tender age of 11, I started writing incest fic. Granted, the most they ever did was snog (because I didn't know enough about the mechanics of sex at that point to write more), but even at that age I felt the need to deal with my shipper's frustration at that abrupt change in canon. I had friends who were Han/Leia shippers who said, "How could you not see that coming?" but I totally didn't. I was the SW equivalent of a Harry/Hermione shipper back in 1983.

Anyway, that post just totally justified my pre-teen incest fics, and I'm rather relieved about that. :-P

Edit: This manip is FTW.

Comments

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

I've always felt that way about Jedi. I was a Han/Leia shipper but even so I was actually pissed when Jedi came out and he resolved that whole love triangle with the whole 'twins' issue. Strangely enough it wouldn't have bothered me IF Luke had come to realize that he regarded Leia more as a sister than as a potential lover than having her actually BE his sister.

And no way where the Luke/Leia shippers off because there WAS hints that Luke definitely had feelings for Leia - and after all she DID kiss him a few times.

Now that I'm an adult I look back and think it would have been great if the triangle had been resolved with Luke and Leia NOT being twins and they all run off together as a trio but if that had happened when i was a kid I would have been shocked. Heh. Still - Leia sure would have been a very lucky woman. ;)

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

*head desk* Er, I mean there were hints, not was.

Btw, that's a great post - thanks for the linkage. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is that until now it didn't occur to me to look at that as such a weak point in the narrative. It's something that I totally accepted as canon, even though it didn't sit well with me. At that age I wouldn't have criticized GL's story, yo know? It was what it was. It's funny to think I never realized that could have been handled better until right now!

I remember writing at least one fic where Leia had relationships with both uys and everyone was happy with the arrangement. Thank god all of those are lost to time. I'm sure they were pretty awful! :-P

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

I remember reading the novelization before the movie as it was released a few days before the movie came out. When I got to that page I sort of stared at the book because I couldn't quite believe it. I kept wondering if I got the wrong book - like it was a parody or something.

I do understand what you mean about not thinking to criticise - it took me a while to admit to myself that I was actually angry with the film because I was also young and it just didn't seem right to be critical of it. Overall I love the universe George gave us but that has always bothered me. I realize that there were a lot of plot points to tie up in two hours but he could have given us something really interesting and emotional with that love triangle and instead we got this weird twins twist that came from out of nowhere and insulted the people who really loved the idea of Luke and Leia together. (And again I was always a Han and Leia shipper but I still felt kind of betrayed by it.)

Heh, all this time later it still bugs me whenever I watch that movie - I've actually skipped those scenes a few times. Except I do love the moment when Luke tells her because it is shot beautifully and the emotions are captured quite well, IMHO. (But the twist still sucks. Heh.)

[tm-nicholas.livejournal.com]

I was the SW equivalent of a Harry/Hermione shipper back in 1983.

I wasn't alive back then. -gigglz-

And, yes, that's all I can contribute at 12:28 am. :P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Aw, poor you missed the chance to see those movies in their original release, back when they were as big as HP and all anyone could talk about. It was a glorious time to be a kid!

[tm-nicholas.livejournal.com]

I never caught the SW bug. I'm not sure why, since I'm a huge fantasy/sci-fi dork.

I've seen one or two of the newer movies.

MmmmHayden. O:-)

[elanna9.livejournal.com]

OMG, I LOVED Splinter of the Mind's Eye! I still have my battered copy ... I read it over and over and over. :)

I totally agree. I was a total Luke/Leia shipper, really up until the big reveal, which I couldn't deal with. (I think I'm a little older; I was 10 when the first movie came out and I became a rabid fan with Mark Hamill posters plastered all over my room.)

Ah, memories. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I still have a dog-eared copy of that book here somewhere. I remember feeling like I'd hit the jackpot when I first read it, back in 1981 or 1982. Oh, the glorious L/L...

[elanna9.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you know I don't think I'll ever get rid of SotME. It's a little embarrassing, but it actually made it onto one of my lists of my 10 favorite books (recently. :P)

Looking back, that might have been the first pairing I ever seriously shipped. Then Apollo/Serena on the first BSG, and then there was a bit of a break until I fell headlong into fandom again many years later with the X Files.

It's kind of cool that Splinter is really fan fiction, in published form.

:)

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I still have my copy! And two copies of the gold Star Wars novelization, one of them held together with tape.

And a cousin of mine has a copy of the novelization in hardback, from before the movie came out. GL released the book first, as a way to drum up interest for the movie.

[elanna9.livejournal.com]

Oh my gosh! The gold Star Wars novelization! I forgot about that, but that was another one of my dearest possessions. I don't think I still have mine, but I remember loving it.

Memories ... :)

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

Oh man that bit where he thinks he's dying (or something like that - it's been ages since I read it_) and he confesses his love for her? And it's supposed to be over just like that?

I remember some really interesting fic back in the day where Luke really isn't over his feelings for her and has to deal with not only her being with Han but the fact that he has these feelings for his sister. Back in the 'zine days ... I wonder if some of those old fics are still online ... *goes to look*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

If you actually find anything, please let me know!

[spinfrog.livejournal.com]

hee! does this mean you might read/write Wincest? ;)

Emma: "Oh man, this frog won't stop bugging me about supernatural, I must watch it so she'll Leave Me Alone!"

:PP

[freckles42.livejournal.com]

I was the SW equivalent of a Harry/Hermione shipper back in 1983.

QFT. I'd never thought of it quite like that, but it's a very fair comparison. :D I always enjoyed Luke/Leia, though I came into it knowing that they were twins. Dirty me. Obviously this trend has not stopped since then, what with my need for Rohancest and Pottercest in any form. *grins*

I always like to think of Luke pulling up Jacen and Jaina when they were young and going, "So, this one time, I kissed your mom..." and someone making a comment about not being on Tatooine anymore.

I wish it had been dealt with in a different way, or at least addressed it. Like you said, those feelings don't just go away. By all rights they should have been on Maury a year later getting a DNA test, y'know?

Oh no, my brain's just gone to a very bad crackfic place.

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Totally ship Han/Luke. All right. I do now. Yes, at the time - though I have seen the films almost in succession about the time I was ten and the first one was made the year I was born - I thought Luke should get the girl, even though it was still the time that I went EWW every time I saw kissing in the TV. But yes, I've also read that fic and it made me think that Luke and Leia weren't siblings at all and George Lucas got it wrong. LOL That said, I never reconciled with the sudden 'twist' and pairing Han with Leia. (Thought it was bad form and now that I think about it, that might have been one of the reasons I started writing my own things: because I thought I could do it better. LOL)

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Btw: Genetic Sexual Attraction. Luke totally should have got the girl. :D

[maple-mahogany.livejournal.com]

Really? ... I didn't see it. sorry!

Not that I was thinking about ship vs ship when I saw it or anything. And this is the very first shippy/fandom post for Star Wars I've ever participated in! :P

But Empire Strikes Back? All that sexual tension, fightflirt!Han, and lamedenial!Leia. Yeah, she kissed Luke, which gave me the wiggins after RotJ came out, but the kiss was done to make Han jealous. Han got all protective of Her when Lando flirted with her. She was all moany and caretakey after he was tortured. Then the big "I love you" "I know" at the end.

RotJ opens with her trying to rescue him, and after he melts she says "someone who loves you." (doesn't she? not my fandom, just a run of the mill SW dork going off of memory here)

What were the big L/L moments that support the ship? I can think of little stuff, but nothing that made me 'shocked/angry' about RofJ.

[sagcat.livejournal.com]

Sorry, but Luke was totally hot for Leia the moment he saw her.
"I dunno. What do you think? A girl like that and a guy like me..."
"NO!"

=-)

[maple-mahogany.livejournal.com]

Well, Luke was definitely crushing - I'll buy that for sure. :P

[nmalfoy.livejournal.com]

Just further proof of how much you rock.

[ausmac.livejournal.com]

Its a good point and one that I found interesting at the time. I was never that much interested in any Luke and Leia stuff, and I always felt that Lucas' intentions changed between his first and second film; I will believe till I shuffle off that he never intended them to be related and he never intended Vader to be Luke's dad. To me, it is absolutely clear in Star Wars (which is what Ep 4 will always be to me) that there were certain two-dimensional concepts in play - good v evil, hero, heroine, plucky scoundrel with a heart of gold and furry sidekick, cute feisty robots, etc. When he went on to the following films he had to give it more depth, and that was the way he took it.

[sagcat.livejournal.com]

You made like 7 points here, and I agree with every one of them. (The movie was called "Star Wars" and I'm supposed to what? forget?) This whole notion that in 1977, Lucas had a six or nine part story arch of the rise and fall and redemption of Luke's Dad... I call bullshit.

Regardless of what Lucas did to those stories, Darth Vader for me still represents the same iconic, unapologetic, totalitarian evil that he was in 1977 and I was five.

[ldybastet.livejournal.com]

*nods* I was very surprised at that plot twist as well back then. I watched the movie in the cinema on the premiere here in Sweden, and I remember I walked out of there feeling as if it had been a bumpy ride... and not bumpy only because of starships and chases and tension and adventure and whatnot. But I was a kid, and back then I never dared question the creator of anything, so I just tried to ignore the feeling. Secretly, though, I cheered that they were twins and hoped they were off humping each other whenever Han was gone from home, but I think that was mostly to resolve the issue for me, make it work in the previous context. ;-)

[swizzasnake.livejournal.com]

I totally get that - I never had all of that "what? they're twins?" thing, because I saw ROTJ first. I was only about 5 lol, then went back a few years later and watched them in order.

BUT, the first time I saw Heroes, I seriously thought Nathan and Peter were together, what with all the gratuous touching lol. And even knowing they were brothers very quickly, that impression did kinda stick. So yea, that post somewhat validates my new fandom as well - why do all the characters ignore the tension, WHY? It's a mystery. Great link, ta muchly for it.

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

It's pretty interesting... I never thought the incest/sexual tension was weird, I guess because I'd already read everything ever written by VC Andrews and I was a total Cathy/Christopher shipper. *cough* And those books were NOT innocent by a long shot. But I think you're totally right about ROTJ and the way the whole incest thing is just not dealt with at all. But then, I have a pretty low opinion of Lukas's writing skills *especially* when it comes to characterization, so I can't say I'm that surprised that he failed to address it.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

I didn't think much about it at the time but I was like 5 or 6 so maybe that's why.

But I know when I finally started thinking "thinky thoughts", I always thought Luke and Leia were way better than Han and Leia. They complimented each other, supported each other and omg, does this mean I'm a Star Wars Harmonian as well? HEEE

Mum didn't really worry over the Luke/Leia shipping but she wondered about me when I said that Biggs and Luke and then Wedge and Luke were totally kissing before their mission, they just didn't show it on tv.

But back on track - yes, I think it's a weak point in the narrative and it's one of the places I point to when I say that George Lucas shouldn't be allowed to write his own scripts without people looking over it and critiquing but then I normally go on to the prequels and how horrible those scripts were (I love you, no I love you more, for example).

!!!!

[glockgal.livejournal.com]

I was the SW equivalent of a Harry/Hermione shipper back in 1983.

HOMG dude, if JKR suddenly revealed in the last line of DH that "oh and, by the way: Harry and Hermione were actually half-siblings, surprize!!" I'd be hunting down Harry/Hermione fics like. RIGHT NOW.

Re: !!!!

[grey-hunter.livejournal.com]

Actually, the Grangers are really the Potters who somehow survived the Killing Curse, then were sent back five-six years into the past via a Time Turner by Dumbledore, Obliviated and relieved of their magic, but they still had to produce a little helper for Harry.

[owens-mom.livejournal.com]

all that stuff is weird, and I'm waiting for Owen to ask "wtf, mom?" LOL and that Manip...shit that is funny.

if only I could mix in a good Buffy reference

[sagcat.livejournal.com]

I have several thoughts on this, and because I'm so tired, I'm just going to list them, hack-sports-writer style. You can probably expect an abundance of parentheticals and rhetorical questions, too.

1. It was only after the disaster of Ep's 1-3 that I looked back and realized that my favorite childhood movies (Star Wars, Empire, & Jedi) were horribly written and acted. At the time, I too would never have questioned anything, but right now...

2. The notion that Lucas would handle something like human emotion or a love triangle with anything other than ham-handed clumsiness seems naive.

3. Yes, I loved Star Wars. Can you tell I'm kinda bitter about what he did to them?

4. Good analogy to the Harry-Ron-Hermione love triangle! I hadn't thought of that, but there's actual precedence for a writer pairing her leading lady with the hero's sidekick! Except, in the case of Star Wars, the sidekick was SO BLOODY MUCH cooler than the story's hero, while the opposite is true for JKR's story. So now JKR can say "Look, I know I paired Lois Lane with Jimmy Olson, but George Lucas did it before me and he's a really adequate writer!" Or something. (And yes, I saw Hermione/Ron coming since like Year 2, but it still never made sense.)

5. I think when I was 11 and Jedi hit the theaters, if they would have spent another 30 seconds for Luke to deal with his "feelings" about his sister, I would squirmed in my seat and wondered what movie I had walked into. On with the Ewoks pummeling two-legged Imperial Walkers with Giant Logs already! (I was just hoping my parents weren't noticing me drooling over the hotness of the gold bikini and chains thing, cause wow that created some tingling that I didn't understand for many years.) (You may have been a ~teensy~ bit ahead of me developmentally.)

6. (last one I swear) If JKR goes back and writes a seven piece prequel in which all of the story's characters make contrived small-world appearances in each other's lives which were apparently "forgotten" by Hogwarts time, my crushing disappointment will know no bounds. If she takes a character based on toy sales, ala Boba Fett, and makes it so that character is central to the story development, then pretends she had that in mind all along, I'll lose all respect for her.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

*has perfect icon*

I was so a Luke/Leia 'shipper. Except I was also closet-ly a Leia/Darth 'shipper 'cos of my non-con fantasies but I wouldn't admit it to anyone. Yeah, that one got scarily blown to hell by RotJ too.

AND I'm an H/Hr 'shipper. The lesson? Never like the pairings I like. You'll be sad eventually.

[verdenia.livejournal.com]

Never like the pairings I like. You'll be sad eventually.

Aww, hon! *pets* There, there...

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh, wait! I did pick the right pairing in Tamora Pierce's Alanna books, yay!

[verdenia.livejournal.com]

OMG, I have So Much Love for your icon! I've probably seen Heathers at least a few dozen times. :P
[and the color on my VHS copy is fading to prove it, lol!
the sound, too, at the beginning!]

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I love that movie too, and mine's on VHS as well, hee!

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Oh! And did I mention that the first time I saw Star Wars I thought that big procession at the end was Luke and Leia's WEDDING!! And I was startled when it wasn't!

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

I read Splinter of the Mind's Eye so many times I'm surprised the cover didn't wear off. I actually found a copy at the Salvation Army or somewhere and bought it to replace my long lost original. I didn't realize anyone else has even heard of it.

I saw Luke/Leia all over the place. I also saw Han/Leia as believable, though, and later I was all about Han/Luke as well. So maybe it's an OT3?

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

I am so with you on that. A lot of my fic wasn't overt twincest, but it did deal with Luke's ongoing feelings for Leia in one way or another. It was easier for Leia because she had Han, but I think it would take Luke a long time to get over her. If ever.

[verdenia.livejournal.com]

Great post and linkage. ;D
I grew up watching the first two on vhs, and when I was 6, mom took me and sis out of school for a matinee of ROTJ in the theater. We continued to watch all the movies on vhs on a very regular basis.
It wasn't until early in my freshman year of college that I realized what a *whiner* Luke was at the beginning! ["but Uncle Owen!"] ;p

I totally want to search used bookstores for Splinter now! ;D

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Lol Harmonian!

I don't think I thought about it that much at the time. I was into Leia since she's the big Sue or whatever, and probably shipped her with someone of a less threatening masculinity (even than Luke) like Shaun Cassidy or something.

[hafan4life.livejournal.com]

You should post some of those old fics on here if you still have them. Luke/Leia is a really hard pairing to find