Just an opinion.

[emmagrant01]

This has been bothering me for a while now, and slytherincess  made a post that hit my feelings about it right on the nose.

I'm honestly boggling about all of this anger about LJ allowing anorexia comms while deleting two of our porny fanartists. Before you yell at me -- I get that anorexia is bad. I know it hurts many people, even causes their deaths, and causes irreparable harm. I do understand that it is a mental disease.

But when you go off on LJ about letting those comms stay, do you realize that you're essentially saying if they let other comms where people share their experiences with a mental disease stay, they should let adult-oriented fanfic stay too? In other words, you're directly comparing (and even equating) people who write fanfic to those with a mental illness. o_0

Okay, that's extreme, I'll admit, but here is my point: The decision of who gets to be on LJ is NOT a zero-sum game. The existence of those comms does not affect the existence of fanfic communities. We aren't competing for space. At most, we're asking LJ to be just as open-minded with us as they are with those anorexia comms, but to call for those to be deleted seems bizarre to me. After all, there are a hell of a lot of people out there who think that we are the sickos who are hurting kids. They're wrong, but how can we ask them not to judge us while we point a judgmental finger at others, no matter how warped we think they are?  Pity them, comment to them, even mock them if you want -- hell, I've happily mocked furry zoophiles in the past -- but they have a right to be on LJ too.  We are the LAST people who should be encouraging LJ to censor anyone. 

Edit: According to this comment, this is the same way the breastfeeding wank (aka Nipplegate) started. Someone pointed the finger at nursing icons when pissed off about his own being deemed inappropriate.  LJ's response?  To ban the default nursing icons.   Sound familiar?  Thanks to spare_change for this link about how badly LJ handled that one.

I'd really prefer this post not be linked from Metafandom -- thanks.

Comments

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

[phaballa.livejournal.com]

I think people are more upset about the pro-ana comms. And I've been to those comms, and they're pretty disturbing. Mostly anorexic girls helping other anorexic girls be MORE anorexic. How to hide it from your parents and teachers, how to make it look like you're gaining weight when you're not. They post pictures of themselves (usually half-naked) and say things like, "95 pounds, soooo fat :("

I've always been disturbed by pro-ana comms, but I never really thought it had anything to do with fandom or that LJ had some sort of say in what they did, so. *shrug* To me, the only way they're connected is that there are certain cultural pressures and prejudices concerned with both fandom and eating disorders--the way our society portrays women, the pressures to be so thin it's almost impossible to achieve via healthy means; and then the prejudice fandomers feel, ie, that gay sex is still so taboo, that none of the presidential candidates are in favor of gay marriage, that gays are second-class citizens by federal LAW.

It's sort of a stretch to connect them, but prejudice is an overarching issue that does connect us all in some way. Of course, I think that in fandom, we celebrate our differences, whereas pro-ana comms are trying desperately to conform, to the point of really hurting themselves physically and mentally.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

But the fact is that fandom folks are connecting them, and that is what bothers me. People are literally saying, "Oh so the pro-ana comms are okay, but fanfic is bad and has to go?" Pitting the two against each other is absurd and really doesn't help our cause IMO.

[gmth.livejournal.com]

I'm torn on this one. I see what both you and slytherincess are saying, but there is also the undeniable fact that there is stuff going on there that's against the TOS. It's not the content of the comm I'm objecting to per se, but the idea that LJ actually changed the way the TOS are interpreted in order to boot fen while ignoring pretty blatant violations on the PA comm. My sense of fair play is disturbed by that. So I think the only fair solution here is to reinstate the fan journals and start ignoring all of us again. :-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I agree that they should just ignore us all, as they've done for so many years. I simply don't like the idea of fen pointing their fingers at other comms and saying, "If you're going to censor us, then you should censor them too!" That really, really bothers me.

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Someone did get pro_self_harm suspended.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

And so we all sound our victory cheer? Yay, we took another sick group down with us! :-/

[kriken.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're saying here, although I think - and correct me if I'm wrong, because I didn't read all of the comments that started this - that what initially started this discussion wasn't necessarily that LJ was "promoting" pro-ana, but that people felt that 6A wasn't following their own TOS (the self-harm clause, specifically). It read like they were being nitpicky about their TOS with fandom, but then took a much broader approach when it came to other things that some think should be getting deleted according to the new TOS.

Granted, people have since latched onto the pro-ana argument and run with it in what is probably not the right direction, but I think the initial argument still has a leg to stand on.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, you're right -- but the end result is still that we are pushing LJ to censor the content on their site more. In fact, many of us are now insisting on it. It's one thing to say, "We weren't treated fairly", but it's another to say, "If you're going to do it to us then you have to do it to them too." The latter is childish and only hurts us in the long run, IMO.

[treewishes.livejournal.com]

That "live and let live" thing is just some abstract concept to a whole lot of people, I think. Excellent points.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I guess that's it, yeah. Live and let live. It feels like bad karma all around. :-P

[son-of-darkness.livejournal.com]

I agree with kriken. The whole thing has been blown WAY out of proportion, and now people have taken the pro-ana argument and run with it... way too fast... in the wrong direction...

What I object to is not so much the actual content of those comms (although I kinda do), but the fact that LJ seems to be picking and choosing which sections of its userbase gets picked out for violating their ToS, and which don't... it seems a bit like picking favourites on LJ's part, and that's what bugs me.

It's a bit like being in a school exam with someone who keeps talking to you and trying to copy off your paper when they think the teacher isn't looking. They keep pestering you, and you keep trying to ignore them and do your work, but they won't stop... they keep asking asking "Whats the answer to question 3?", and finally, when you can't take it anymore, you turn round and whisper "shut up" and it's YOU the teacher picks out for detention.

That's my analogy. So yeah... comparing the two is silly, and I think people are lashing out randomly, now, but as Kriken said, the initial argument is still very much valid.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I don't disagree with you, really. My argument is more with the way it's blown up into a sort of feeding frenzy in which rather than insisting that LJ continue to go with the relaxed rules we've enjoyed in the past, everyone else should be censored too. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of fandom insisting that other groups be censored. It just seems like bad karma. :-P

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

*goes back to read own post on said subject to see what she said on it*

I think part of the problem was that some of the comments made by an LJ staffer, seemed to sound like the communities were for healing, and because she brushed off comments about the communities with "it's not illegal to aspire to be thin". Which rubbed a lot of people the wrong way (myself included, for my own reasons). I think what was meant to say "Hold on, why does it appear that the ToS isn't being applied uniformly to all communities?" has turned into a "If we are being taken down, we're taking everyone with us".

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think what was meant to say "Hold on, why does it appear that the ToS isn't being applied uniformly to all communities?" has turned into a "If we are being taken down, we're taking everyone with us".

Yes, and that is precisely what bothers me.

[(Anonymous)]

I posted about the pro-ana flap on my journal a few days ago, as well.

I'm in agreement.

I also am really impatient with the fannish aaanngggsst about how the p-a comms are hurting people.

It's a little conveniently timed.

I'm just sayin'.

[villeinage.livejournal.com]

OH, for cryin' out loud--that anonymous post was me.

LJ signed me out.

[nimroddess.livejournal.com]

I respectfully disagree. I had this big long comment typed out, and then I changed my argument. I get what you're saying, and for the most part my personal feelings are what you stated - that we're asking LJ to be just as open-minded with us as they are with those anorexia comms. However, from a strictly logical point of view, it makes more sense to call for them to be deleted. It's like when you get pulled over for speeding and you say to the police officer, "But that guy in front of me was going just as fast and you let him go!" You're imploring the cop not to give you a ticket because he didn't give the other guy a ticket, but the situation doesn't negate the fact that you were speeding and deserve the ticket. What you should be saying, logically speaking, is, "If you're going to give me a ticket then you ought to give the other guy a ticket too." Though, I do have to agree with you and others that this kind of logic applied to real life is often more like narcing and is basically a lose-lose situation and it doesn't help anyone. You can't really use this argument to get what you want, but just to make a point.

I also never had the impression anyone was comparing/equating the mental disease of an eating disorder to fandom. As far as I know, nobody has died because of something posted in a porny fandom journal. LJ is suspending fandom's license for driving 5 over the speed limit while the pro-ana communities are getting away with vehicular manslaughter. How can this be illegal when that isn't? And if nothing else, they should be consistent when enforcing their rules.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I saw your second comment. ;-)

And yeah, I think you get that what I'm bothered by is the fact that some of us seem to be encouraging a witchhunt of sorts, and we should know by now (c.f. Nipplegate) that LJ doesn't respond well to that sort of attack. We only make it worse for ourselves in the long run, because despite the logic of the original argument, the LJ team doesn't use earth logic. :-P

[football-girl.livejournal.com]

And that's only half the story. There are users/communities that openly gay bash, are racist, sexist, etc. I reported a gay-bashing user (who basically went on about how all gays should die and how), and LJ got back to me saying that because of laws of free speech, they couldn't do anything about it. It is evident by now that LJ is not following any laws, but their own preferences.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I totally agree that LJ is a badly run company that has shitty customer service. :-P

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

I kind of agree, I think, for my own reasons. I think the point is simply to scream at LiveJournal/SixApart: "HYPOCRITES! You ban us, but you don't ban them and they're much worse!"

The urge is there, and giving in to the impulse feels good. I'll admit I'm a spiteful, vindictive bitch and do feel that urge toward LiveJournal, "If I can't enjoy it, I want to burn it to the ground so no one else can either." But really, if the pro-ana communities get shut down, how does that benefit fandom in any way, shape or form? There's a school of thought that anorexia is a reaction to overly controlling parents; so does forbidding them to have their own communities really help to cure them? I disapprove of them very strongly. But I get a queasy feeling in my stomach about encouraging LiveJournal to censor others, just because I fear for my own LJ.

[littleroo27.livejournal.com]

I think most people just want them to run their ToS with an even hand over everything, which I realize is hard to do. And I, for one, have zero problem with the communities on their own, but I did run across a couple of comments that were very much against the ToS because they told you how to harm yourself, either by taking epicac to be able to vomit or where to cut so no one can find them, and one even posted a link telling you how to not fuck up your suicide.

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

While I admit, the initial argument with regard to 6A's interpretation of the TOS was valid, yeah, it kind of exploded in a bad way, and a lot of it has felt more like grudgewank than "for the greater good". Heh. If they (or other "questionable" comms (and I use that term loosely) get TOS'd, what's to stop them from filing abuse complaints about anyone they've seen ranting against them, or comms the ranters belong to, in retaliation? LJ's made it even easier to do so now.

I don't condone pro-ana sites, and I don't think ignoring their existence is the way to go either, but the analogy to Boobgate is rather glaring in its similarity, and it made me uncomfortable as well.

Nice post. It's good to be able to discuss these things rationally, regardless of whether we all agree or not.

HAPPY B-DAY!

[mamainak.livejournal.com]

Um, not really appropriate place or timing (for the record, in my timezone is 12th :P) but maybe cheers you up!!!



HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

Best wishes, no more upsetting and much much much more pr0n!!

[twigged.livejournal.com]

I think the comparison aptly highlights SixApart's hypocrisy with regard to their "protect the children" spiel, but actively trying to get those comms deleted is taking things too far, IMO.

[cryptoxin.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I actually disagree with some of the commenters on whether the pro-ana comms are indeed violating LJ's ToS and whether it would be good to ban them, but I've posted at that in my LJ so I won't repeat the arguments here.

Mainly, I'm disturbed that some people seem to have learned all the wrong lessons from the Warriors for Innocence attack. And we should all be concerned about the potential karmic blowback.

[mijan.livejournal.com]

My complaint isn't that the pro-anorexia communities exist. I'm not saying that LJ should delete them. My anger is directed at the ignorant, idiotic, and dangerous comment by a Six Apart representative, flippantly saying that here's nothing wrong with wanting to be thin, and using it as a blanket statement about anorexia and these types of groups.

I believe in free speech. I believe in free communication. I believe that censorship is bad. But I also believe that her words are dangerous, not as a threat to ideas, but as a threat to human lives, whether or not she realizes it. Ignorance can be the most dangerous thing in the world. I know far too well about the damage and dangers of eating disorders. That one comment speaks volumes. It's scary.

And, on a totally different note:

*sings*

Happy birthday to you,
Happy birthday to me,
Happy birthday Calyxess,
Happy birthday to weeeeeee!

*takes a bow*

Yes, August 12th is clearly the absolute coolest day to be born. Happy birthday, Emma!

[if-in-solitude.livejournal.com]

Definitely seeing your point on this. Equating slash and anorexia advocates isn't exactly going to make our community look any better.

In a way, I feel for LJ on the enforcement issue. It must be difficult to try police such a large community that is constantly changing and updating. It would be nice to just not censor anything, but logically I suppose that's not possible. One doesn't want pro-pedophilia or pro-assasination groups to have free rein.

Still I can't help feeling that they should be doing a much better job of distinguishing the dangerous from the deviant.

[stve3.livejournal.com]

At first, I was torn on this one.. But you're right-Pointing the finger at others does no good to fandom.

I wanted to say thanks for caring so much and being involved (I go to your journal for updates on this issue). I'm not directly in this issue because right now, I read and watch HP fic and art (have journals of people been deleted because they were members of an adult oriented HP community without them doing any art or fic?

Also wanted to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY if I'm correct :D
I've been reading your journal ever since I stumbled across "Left My Heart"-You were still writing it then so I remember anticipating every following chapter with glee! To this day, LMH and StG are two (or should I say one?) of my favorite HP fic of all time! I've always considered it an H/D classic! And I'm glad you're archiving all your fics in one place! I think it will be much more comfortable that way and it doesn't hurt to have another back up nowadays :(

Another thing that's been bugging me ever since reading your chapter by chapter review of DH: why is Lily connected to a Doe (you figured it out before reading "The Prince's Tale"... Is it just because James=Stag => Lily=Doe ? or is there something else mentioned in one of the previous books?

Thanks!

[rebekkamaria.livejournal.com]

I agree with you completely. We are the LAST people who should be encouraging LJ to censor anyone. Especially that is a very strong point. Thank you. :)

Also, I would like to wish you happy birthday. ^_^

[peppery-lime.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the other comments, am trying to get through my flist which is 30some hours ahead of me. that said, my problem was no so much with that they were letting them stay because, ok, fine, i understand that Porn =/= mental illness.

my problem was with the lj staffer that said "proanorexia" meant "healing community, encouraging the recovery from this illness". i'm paraphrasing, but that's the general idea. I was just absolutely astounded that they would say that.

[enablelove.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're talking about.




PS. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

[sugareey.livejournal.com]

You bring up some good points. Yes, there are those type of communities that not only bring up mental illnesses, but also also things like racism and and what not too. I wouldn't exactly compare fandom to any of these. personally, but if these communities are allowed to exist, then fandom ones should stay too.

They've never had a major issue with it when we all first plunged right into writing stories of drawing art. I think what my main concern is just their whole TOS. I think is crap, and the way they keep changing their policies jsut to back themselves up makes me think that LJ and SA are a bunch of cowards because they don't want to admit what they are doing is angering many people. I'll be blunt, and say they are right in a way to act upon complaints sent to them but they are doing so in the wrong way. Simply deleting people is not going to do anything and with their constantly changing TOS, they really need to address to everyone what is acceptable and unacceptable.

I personally don't like the idea of having pro-ana comms and like the like around, but like I said...freedom of speech. The whole idea of fandom is merely that though...fandom. Meaning not real, meaning, in our dreams, meaning, this isn't canon, this isn't real. And I think that LJ/SA need to get a dictionary to define what fandom is because they don't understand it at all. What I can say is that no matter what Lj/SA does from now on, I feel like they will never really make us happy. Just because they've done too much damage already. And it just sucks.




But...on the bright note...HAPPY BIRTHDAY! *hugs* I had to stick that in somewhere. =D