Still not sure what the best option is.

[emmagrant01]

People are starting to dig a little, and it looks like the sites folks are fleeing to aren't any better than this one.

maeglinyedi points out that there may be an issue with Google ads on Insane Journal, since Google doesn't want its ads on sites with adult content. I could swear that I read somewhere that the site owner has said he wouldn't TOS people for fanfic or art, but I can't find that comment now. Their FAQ is a bit nebulous on the subject, though.

Edit: Comments found by various folks re: IJ stuff: Here (on porny fic), here (a pledge not to delete users for fanfic/art unless directed to do so by legal authorities or a DMCA), and here (on the ads issue). It all looks good to me. Also, Maeg has an update post HERE.

shaggirl posts that Greatest Journal has a history of deleting fan artists. Several people are commenting on that post that GJ isn't a great alternative for fandom for a variety of reasons.

JournalFen is 18+ and invite-only, so that may not help fandom much in the long run. [Edit: According to ciel_vert, you can request invite codes for JF at leavin_eljay.] Scribblt is still in the development phase and looks promising, though it will also be 18+. We might just have to face the fact that places that will be safe for adult fandom are going to be age restricted.

Scribblit is being developed and financed single-handedly by one person (twocorpses), and she is taking PayPal donations to help support the project. Please go HERE to donate.

Edit: This comment below by elke_tanzer has a lot of good information in it.

Comments

[ciel-vert.livejournal.com]

An FYI you might want to make in your post. People can request JournalFen accounts at leavin_eljay. I did and got my JF account not 12 hours later. I have a feeling JF and Scribblet, when it's finished, are going to be the places adult fandom has to stay. Which is fine I suppose. I can only hope we all go somewhere as one so we don't lose each other.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I've added that.

[coolblue67.livejournal.com]

I just fear we're going to end up loosing each other with the confusion of figuring out the best place to go and keep fandom alive. If journals are f-locked would that be the best approach? Then we wouldn't have to leave LJ. I don't know. It's a mess really and I can't help thinking how unnecessary it all is. LJ really should try harder to set some better guidelines and keep the business and the respect of its members. :/

[swizzasnake.livejournal.com]

I'm sure I read on lj_biz that f-locking stuff will not keep it safe. They just don't want to host the adult content, it seems. I could have read it wrong, but I'm positive they declared f-locking pretty much useless.

[swizzasnake.livejournal.com]

Ah I thought I was right, thanks for the confirmation. :-)

[vichan.livejournal.com]

We might just have to face the fact that places that will be safe for adult fandom are going to be age restricted.
I have a confession: I found my first piece of fan-porn at the age of 13. It wasn't marked clearly (it was rated 'R' instead of 'NC-17' or some equivalent), and said nothing about it being an adult fic. It didn't scar me for life or anything, but it was what likely got me addicted to adult fandom WAY before I was an adult. I started LOOKING for it, all because I ran across one story by accident. Looking back, that was a bit too young.

So I'm kind of coming down on the side that it may be a wise idea. It sucks, especially because I know there are plenty of mature minors out there - but it would probably be better for adult fandom in the long run.

[katieupsidedown.livejournal.com]

I was twelve and it was a Sailor Moon lesbian orgy fic. :D And badly written at that. As with most things, I initially wanted to stab my eyes out, but then I used the fact that I'd found porn to help my rep at school.

I stuck to non-porn for about three years, then I discovered gay porn.

[katieupsidedown.livejournal.com]

I don't know why is matters that JF is 18+. If you're under 18, you shouldn't legally be reading/writing/drawing porn. If you're under 18 and can't figure out how to fake it and get a JF account anyway, you really shouldn't be reading/writing/drawing porn.

I had an email address that said I was 18 when I was 16, a MySpace back when Myspace was 18+ only, and I got my JF account when I was 17.

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Free accounts on JF can be requested for 18+ fans by anyone with a paid account already on JF... turnaround time has been pretty fast, and there's no limit on how many free accounts a paid accountholder can request for folks. Paid accounts are available on JF for any 18+ fan.

The best option from my perspective is distributing across multiple sites, bending new technologies to our will to better link sites together (not just journaling sites that depend on LJ's codebase), and evolving fannish infrastructure to be stronger, better, faster. :-D

From my perspective:

Good short term solution? Back up your LJ, and transition yourself to another LJ-codebase-based journaling service.

Better short term solution? Distribute yourself to multiple LJ-codebase-based journaling services, preferably at least one or more which are run by fans, and enter yourself in http://www.directorium.org/ and http://www.fandom411.com/

Long term solution? Do what you can to help build fan-run, fan-sysadminned, fan-hosted infrastructure. See fandom_flies and fanarchive to help dovetail your efforts with others to increase efficiency on all of the ongoing projects. Don't paint yourself into a single-service corner, even if it's fan-run. Learn to use RSS syndicated feeds, and content aggregators. Know that fandom will survive and thrive.

*big ol' glomping hugs*

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

Clarification... by "transition yourself to another LJ-codebase-based journaling service", I don't necessarily mean "leave LJ entirely" -- that's a question each person is going to answer differently... I kind of mean, "have your account active and as much of your icons and your content uploaded as you want, and your flist and comm memberships the way you want them, in case LJ bans you or the LJ site is unavailable for any reason". Make sense?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks for all of this! I've edited a link to your comment into the post, and I added my info to fandom-411.

[rolling-scone.livejournal.com]

maybe this is the wrong place to say this but... I think we should abide by the laws in our own countries. I mean, there are no international internet laws as of yet, and we're all living according to our local legislation in rl, so why not on the internet as well? legal age in England is 16, and in Sweden it's 15. the fact that it's 18 in some parts of the world should not have to effect us in the least.

it may be unfair to the fandomers whose countries have an older legal age, but if we act within the boundaries of our local legislation, we do have some sort of protective net.

or, we could just keep the pr0n away from the kiddies. simple is often best :P

[ninasis.livejournal.com]

I think the issue is where the server is housed. If the server hosting the content is in the US, then the users on that server have to abide by US laws... I may be wrong about that, but everything I've ever heard/read says that's the case. Doesn't matter if you live in Sweden, if you're using a service that is hosted by a server that lives in the US, then you're forced to abide by US laws while using that service.

[maple-mahogany.livejournal.com]

I wonder about rather than leaving LJ (not to say they don't deserve to lose business) but perhaps actual fic and art could be hosted at various archive sites and 'we' just keep the infrastructure here?

I totally understand NOT wanting to have stuff at archive sites and having complete control of your own things. But I know that at least in the short term, I have the majority of my stuff at The Quidditch Pitch and some things at other archives. There are plenty of holes with doing that, I admit, but at least it would be a quick fix.

... I'm not sure what is available for artists. *sigh*

[garlicfiend.livejournal.com]

perhaps actual fic and art could be hosted at various archive sites and 'we' just keep the infrastructure here?

from the link provided by skuf above, LJ Abuse team has said: (http://p-zeitgeist.livejournal.com/62888.html?thread=643752&style=mine#t643752)

Linking to specific offsite content which would violate LiveJournal's Terms of Service can still be considered a violation of LiveJournal's Terms of Service in most situations.

Infrastructure can't work very well if you are unable to link to all the content. :(

[incunabulist.livejournal.com]

Scribblit's also going to be 18+, just fyi. There was a brief point where twocorpses was going to make it all-ages, but she was never really comfortable with the idea. But the upside is that the TOS will be worded to make clear that fanfic/art don't fall under the bit governing illegal obscenity, and the host it's getting moved to says the same thing.

Insane Journal Admin comment link

[fodirteg.livejournal.com]

are here: http://squeaky.insanejournal.com/63787.html
Other interested people may want to read the comments from Squeaky (site owner) and insanity (another admin) about this topic, specifically addressing fanfic and art.

I see you've posted your question about Google kn the comment thread, too. I'll be watching for their answers!

Re: Insane Journal Admin comment link

[maureenlycaon.livejournal.com]

There's also this one (http://asylums.insanejournal.com/announcements/31922.html) in the InsaneJournal Announcements community.

Re: Insane Journal Admin comment link

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

Re: Insane Journal Admin comment link

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[photograficnerd.livejournal.com]

We might just have to face the fact that places that will be safe for adult fandom are going to be age restricted.

True but that's probably just the way it has to be. There will always be a way for those who want to see and read adult fanfic/art, no matter the steps taken to secure it away from underage eyes. Honestly, I got into NC-17/R fic and art when I was probably 15 or so (maybe younger). Now, I don't know how I feel about kids that young accessing adult fiction and art; I see the kids today and believe that's too young to be looking at adult work. (Or maybe it's because I have a 13 yr old brother and it creeps me out to think of him looking at porny stuff online. D: I don't really know.)

If there was a way to have one site with everything on it and you had the option of flagging your journal as 'not suitable for under 18' which blocked out any users not logged in or not of age, then fandom could still be all in one place. But I'm sure the developing for something like that is really difficult.

[ciel-vert.livejournal.com]

http://squeaky.insanejournal.com/63787.html

Squeaky and IJ win!

[ciel-vert.livejournal.com]

Sorry, that was probably insufficient. Down near the bottom of that thread he answers the question about Google ads. And it's very good news for us.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

[coffeejunkii.livejournal.com]

thanks for all the info, emma! i have to say that i don't really mind the 18+ rule. perhaps that's because i'm over 18, but i also b/c i am quite convinced that people who are under 18 will find the stuff anyway [if that's a good or a bad thing is up for debate].

[deora-mystic.livejournal.com]

hmmm, (un)like some people, i'm not v fond of the adult-only option for the survival of fandom, if only because i've spent the best part of my fandom-life as underaged :)

at the same time, as long as there'd be loopholes underage fen could exploit to get to the adult stuff and still maintain a safe environment for the adult fen...



also, i had a very n00b question about scribblit. what is it exactly? it looks v journalfen-ish. is that it? another lj-clone? with a different tos? *iz kinda confused* :-/

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

The leavin_eljay machine is becoming increasingly efficient. I requested a buttload of journals yesterday. The requests have not been sitting longer than a day, at least for the last few days. The volume has exploded, but so have the people requesting journals.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

That's good to know. I went ahead and converted my free account to a paid account, so I guess I'm expecting that to be a good place for people to go...

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

When your paid status goes through, be sure and request some journals for people on leaving_eljay :D

[scarah2.livejournal.com]

Or without the G would be even better :D

[padys.livejournal.com]

Aha! Found the comment by the owner of insanejournal. It's here. Where he says Well I definatly wont allow child pr0n, but if someone wants to write a story about bumbledor giving it to harry potter up the arse, then that's their choice.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thank you! I've edited that into the post.

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

I went ahead and invested the $40 to buy a permanent Insane Journal account. Considering I was spending $30 a year here at LJ ($20 for the paid account, $10 for the icon upgrade) it was too good to pass up. The owner seems to be a lot more dedicated to his fan base than other journals, and it looks like he's going to up the friends limit for free journals even more than the current 250.

I also bought a paid account at JournalFen for a year. We'll see how that goes.

I don't know if the rumours about Greatest Journal are true or not, but I'm not giving them any money just yet. It's my least favorite of the three.

The main problems seem to be that:

1) Most people want to remain on LJ for various reasons. Many of those reasons are valid, and hey - we've built our community here and moving sucks. But also, when it comes down to it, we (general we) may speak out vociferously, but are much more reluctant to act.

2) People are moving are moving all over the place and there's no consensus. With Semagic, it's easy and convenient now for me to post to my four journals, but reading four F-lists? Yeah. Not so convenient or easy.

3) We like the extras here on LJ, and none of the other sites have them - or have them all. We've been spoilt.

It's going to take a while for things to calm down and coalesce into something a bit more coherent and less fractured, and we're not particularly known for our patience. *sigh*

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

Maeg asked about the google ads here. And while, I don't really like the limit on the flist, I do like what he says there about the ads.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I've edited that into the post.

[kaalee.livejournal.com]

I just wanted to thank you for this post. As I've been involved in a lot of school related stuff the last few days, I've missed a lot. It was so helpful to see so much information that you & others collected. ♥

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Hi Emma! Totally off-topic, but irrevokable said something about your possibly being involved in planning a slash meetup in Boston in October 2008. Any details? This is my fair city, so let me know if I can do anything to help.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm not involved, but I sure hope to go! The planning journal is bestbiscuit.

[norton-gale.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Have friended. Hope you can make it. :)

[fritzi-17.livejournal.com]

Hey hello, I've been a little concerned about how we of the fandom will know who/what is going where. It's really sad that things are going down this way; the fandom is such an important resource for writers. I understand that ADULT fanfic needs a new home now that Six Apart has become so decidedly hostile, but it seems like the whole fandom plans on uprooting entirely, not just the porn.

Thank you for being such a valuable informational resource,
Sulli

[primroseburrows.livejournal.com]

My solution is to find a site to host my fic and stick with LJ until they find a reason to kick me out.