On that Fandom-as-a-Hobby Thing

[emmagrant01]

A couple of days ago I made a post with a poll asking people if they viewed fandom as just a hobby or as a stop along a career path, and the results were interesting. I had hypothesized that older fen would be more likely to view fandom as just a hobby, while younger fen would be more likely to think of fandom as a place to try out skills they might be able to turn into a career. People seemed to take the wrong polls, so I don't think the numbers are all that reliable, but the comments made were pretty interesting.


Here are a few in particular that really made me think about how fandom has affected my career -- and yeah, now that I think about it, it really has. And I knew that before, but I think I was trying too hard to make the question answerable in a poll -- and thus I oversimplified the issue. :-P

irisgirl12000: Fandom writing and editing is a hobby, and I don't plan to try my hand at writing fiction for money. I'm a scientist, and I like science most days. But... given the experience I've had editing fanfiction and my colleagues' papers, I've considered applying for a couple of scientific copy editor positions.

That's absolutely true for me. I do a lot of writing and editing of others' work in my job, and my experience as a beta reader and as a fan fiction writer has definitely had an impact on that. I am better at giving and taking criticism than I was before I was in fandom, but I also know A LOT more about writing than I used to. I can pick apart what's wrong with a piece of written work now in a way that's made me a pretty good editor and reviewer.

luminousmarble: I can definitely say that my reading, writing, and communication skills have improved because of fandom--as have my marketing, public relations/publicity, organizational, time-management, legal, general business, and management skills. It's not just fic/art! But, of course, whether in or out of fandom, it's more than just participating in something that improves career skills; it's actively identifying areas to improve and then actively improving them.

I think that's a very good point, and one that's easily overlooked. I think it starts to get hard to separate how RL career skills and online skills develop, but they must affect each other as they do. I think I also gravitate toward many of the same activities in fandom as the activities I enjoy in my job, which is interesting. So I'm getting better at those activities in two very different arenas, which can only be a good thing.

alchemia: Fanfic/art is hobby, but I consider everything in life- hobby, chores, work, etc to be something to learn from and develop skills from, to be used in the future- be that a career, family, or another hobby! I have worked in media before finding fandom, and skills from that I think helped me in fandom, and skills from fandom might one day help me with another hobby, writing a book, a family issue- who knows. :)

And oddnari: I've learnt a lot in fandom - on the nature of writing, about writing for audiences, general and select. And I've learnt what kind of writing I am capable of instinctively, and what kind I need to work at. All those things which I perhaps would have learnt only in some class. I personally felt that fandom's rather like a creative writing class (wank et al included). And since learning remains life-long, am sure there are several things which I'll be learning, irrespective of my age, from fandom.

Oh, I absolutely agree with these comments. I'm also one of those "I'm always learning" people, and I know I've learned a heck of a lot from being in fandom. I mean geez, the web skills I've picked up are insane! Everyone I know asks me for help sorting out computer stuff now, and I can usually help them. So yes, there are definitely a lot of "life skills" I've learned in fandom that also translate into things that help me at work.

aubergineautumn: I see it as a hobby for bad writers (irregardless of age) and a place to relax and hone their craft for writers that are very good. I expect good authors to eventually publish their own original work AND stay in the fandom.

I guess that's the sentiment I disagree with, that if you're any good as a writer, you should try to publish original fiction and that if you don't there's something wrong. The fact that I do this as a hobby doesn't mean that I'm not working hard at it and trying to improve. I don't think I'm a bad writer, but I also have no desire to write an original novel. I'm just not interested, and I think that's okay. Part of what I love about writing fan fiction is the community of it, and that community just isn't the same for professional writers. It would be lonely and a lot less fun than fandom. And hell, I get paid pretty well to do what I do now. It's really hard to make a living as a writer, so why should I sacrifice a job I enjoy and make decent money at for one I would enjoy less and make no money at? Do people who move on to professional writing also keep writing fan fiction? I'm not sure, but if I had to give up fandom for professional writing, I'd pick fandom. No contest.

These two comments about the age divide made me laugh:

jedirita: When you're younger, you might be a bit more susceptible to other people's comments of, "You should publish!" Whereas older folk might be more inclined to say, "Fuck that, I got a mortgage to pay off."

glasshouseslive: Young people want to use fandom to move into the professional art/writing world, because Life(tm) has not yet crushed their spirits into paste.

Bwahahaha! Oh, so funny... ;-)

And shadowpryde sums it up nicely: I love Fandom. It's my life. In some ways it's a hobby, in other ways it's a lifestyle. Professional, probably never, but hey, it never hurts to dream the impossible dream.

Fandom is definitely a lifestyle! And maybe that's the best way to think about it. :-)

Thanks for the comments!

Comments

[belleweather.livejournal.com]

I was firmly in the "Hobby" camp... until I realised that my first academic paper in my field was on the route to being published and was only written because of someone's horrible, terrible, wrong (but popular) fandom opinion and it's implications on my field. So perhaps I need to rethink that idea a bit. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It's complicated, isn't it? It's primarily a hobby for me, in the sense that I don't plan to ever do anything to make money off of things like what I do in fandom -- but I can't deny that I've learned things in fandom that have affected my RL work.

[mofic.livejournal.com]

That's true for me, too - and vice versa. Fandom is a hobby and a very fun one, but what I learn in fandom informs my work and what I learn at work informs my fanfic.

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I guess that's the sentiment I disagree with, that if you're any good as a writer, you should try to publish original fiction and that if you don't there's something wrong.

Yeah, I disagree with that strongly as well. I would even go so far as to say that I resent the implication that anyone who *doesn't* use fandom as a training ground for a professional writing career is by default a bad writer. I think there are a million different reasons why or why not a person might choose to participate in fandom and not choose to pursue a career as a professional writer.

I know I've toyed with a number of different scenarios, and probably will continue to do so. There are things I may or may not end up writing, and there are *so* many things that factor into the "may" or "may not." It would be impossible to identify one simple reason for any of the choices I have made or will make in the future.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I resent the implication that anyone who *doesn't* use fandom as a training ground for a professional writing career is by default a bad writer.

Me too, and I don't know if that's what the commenter meant to imply, but I've definitely heard that sentiment before. For example, I heard it said by a major BNF in the HP fandom, and it pissed me off in a big way. In fact, it was the motivation behind starting slashcast... ;-)

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

I would even go so far as to say that I resent the implication that anyone who *doesn't* use fandom as a training ground for a professional writing career is by default a bad writer.

Yeah, seriously. I know I'm a good writer, good enough that editors will pay me decent (by nonfiction standards, which are much higher than short fiction standards) amounts of money to write. My fiction writing probably isn't up to my nonfiction writing, but I know I'm not bad. But (a) nonfiction pays better and (b) I'm about to start grad school in a totally un-writing-related field. Being a professional fiction writer has never been my goal.

[aubergineautumn.livejournal.com]

It seems I have an unpopular opinion- oh well. The writers who have published that I know all kept their day jobs. Although writing can be lucrative, for most it is not, just a paycheck on the side. And they doenjoy their dayjobs. Publishing is a hobby, and they crank out a book about once every 3 to 5 years. That's why I don't view publishing an original work as giving up your "real world" identity/job. It seems inevitable to me that a good writer would have enough scraps and ideas over the years to publish at least one novel. But- that's just my opinion, and I know that not everyone will agree.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think the thing I object to is the idea that work in fandom should lead to a professional writing career or else one isn't a "serious" writer. I spent three years working on a two-part HP novel, and I'm very proud of it. Sure, I could've used that time to write a novel that I could have published, but I wouldn't have enjoyed the process as much as I did in fandom. If you measure success by the number of readers a work of fiction has, fandom is the way to go. My fics have been read by tens of thousands of people and have been translated into multiple languages. If I had published a novel, there is NO WAY I would have gotten that level of recognition. I feel like a successful writer in fandom, and it makes me happy. I honestly don't think having a published novel would make me any happier.

As an aside, I'm published through my RL work, and so the whole "being published" thing is not that big a deal to me. Been there, done that. Maybe that makes a difference.

[wivern.livejournal.com]

I think the thing I object to is the idea that work in fandom should lead to a professional writing career or else one isn't a "serious" writer.

*nods* Oh yes, I find this attitude deeply offensive, on several levels.

It implies that there is something inherently 'good' about being a published writer and one should strive for that, and if you don't there is something wrong with you.

It also seems to imply that published and original work is of 'better' quality then non published and fan fic. Now I know there is a lot of terrible fanfic around but the good fanfic is as good, or better, than a lot of published work.

As an aside, there are some fan writers who have published original fic that I personally thought was of a lesser standard to their fan fic.

[ellie-nor.livejournal.com]

It seems inevitable to me that a good writer would have enough scraps and ideas over the years to publish at least one novel.

Just because they could doesn't mean they will or should do so. That's a judgement that will be different for every person, one that none of us have the right to make for anybody else.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

I guess that's the sentiment I disagree with, that if you're any good as a writer, you should try to publish original fiction and that if you don't there's something wrong.

I definitely agree. Fanfiction and original fiction are two different animals entirely, and not just in terms of content. I answered in the poll that I saw fanfiction as somewhere in between a hobby and training - both the practice and the feedback fanfiction and fandom provides has definitely helped me improve my writing and has given me the skills and the confidence to tackle an original novel. But even if I did ever manage to publish original fiction, I would still want to be reading and writing fanfiction because it's a social activity, and it's a lot more fun, and it's every bit as creative and thought-provoking and valid an art form as original fiction.

...plus, fanfic smut beats published smut hands down. *g*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I would still want to be reading and writing fanfiction because it's a social activity, and it's a lot more fun, and it's every bit as creative and thought-provoking and valid an art form as original fiction.

Yes, absolutely. I LOVE the social aspect of fandom, and though I would still be writing fanfic even without it (as I did before I found fandom), it wouldn't be nearly as much fun. This is all about fun for me. :-)

[elke-tanzer.livejournal.com]

I didn't quite know how to answer your poll, because all of the skills I've gained through fannishness have helped my career, and writing may be the least of them... the web skills and fearlessness of just jumping in and learning things like XML and CSS and RSS (and how to propose and moderate communities, discussions and convention panels) has put me in very good stead career-wise. Fandom is my hobby playground, but it is also my forge and my proving ground as I learn new skills and interconnect them to my existing toolkit and repertoire.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It's definitely a good place to learn how to work with cutting edge technology. I've tried to take some of the technology stuff I've learned through fandom and apply it to work, and it's often been hard because everyone else doesn't understand how it all works. :-P

[shadowpryde.livejournal.com]

{claps hands}

I win at summing up!

There is alot of accuracy in jedirita's comment. For every year you're around in the real world, more responsibilities land on your plate and take up room for dreams and the more responsibilities there are then the more that nasty reality likes to smack you in the face. (I almost typed on the ass ... I suppose that would work, too.)

-Draconis Leona-

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It's been amazing to me to see how much my priorities have changed in the last few years. If someone had asked my five years ago where I thought I'd be in five years, I would've been disappointed at where I actually wound up. But I know so much more now than I did then! It's hard to explain. ;-)

[glasshouses.livejournal.com]

My work here is done!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

:-D

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Great minds think alike! Originally I was going to say something about, "Young people haven't yet had their dreams crushed," but I thought that might come off as too cynical.

Then again, you're older than me, so you have a few more years of cynicism under your belt. :P

[daddybear716.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, let me see if I can word these thoughts out right. Personally I see fandom as a hobby. I'm a fair writer, far from what I would consider a good or great writer. I've written some stories that have gotten some really good reviews. But I really think that comes more from my own pigish experiences rather than being a great writer.

Fan graphics have allowed to play with imagery and retouching techniques. Something I wouldn't have the time to do on my job, but opens up experiences and potential skills that I might be able to use on the job.

I see your writing as having the potential to be published if you had the desire to pursue it. I just finished reading "Left My Heart," which I saw more as a gay short story, rather than a piece of fan fiction. To me it read more as a story about 2 twenty-something gay men who just happened to be wizards as opposed to a Harry/Draco Five Years After Hogwarts fan fic.

It also was a whole lot better than a lot of the original gay fiction that is out there, which is why I see you having the potential to publish original stories. Your descriptions of the wizarding world of San Francisco was as enthralling to me as the first time I read JKR's descriptions of Diagon Alley.

What people also don't sometime realize is that doing something just because you love doing it is one thing. But to do it to make a living and pay the bills makes it a whole other thing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

So you're saying my Harry and Draco are hopelessly OOC? ;-)

I think that one of the cool things about fanfic is that you are playing in a shared universe, and so writing fic is about interacting with the source text, and not just purely creating something. That interaction is a lot of fun for me, and it just wouldn't be as much fun if I were writing about my own universe. But on top of that, the community is the big draw for me, and even if one is a successful fiction writer, you can't really participate in a community of people who love your work. You're always on the outside of that, and I'd just miss it too much.

[ellie-nor.livejournal.com]

Yes! I write original poetry, and I could write original fiction, but the only time I ever found writing original fiction fun was when I was on a creative writing course last year, and I a) had a specific reason to write, and a prompt to work from, b) had a tutor to give me focused feedback and c) had a 'community' of fellow writers.

I haven't got the money to keep going on courses, and the thought of being in a writing group locally turns my stomach; the other writers in the valley look down their noses at fantasy and science fiction, without ever having read any, and any they have read can't be fantasy or science fiction because they enjoyed it! Not that I generally write fantasy or science fiction when I write original fiction, but the attitude puts me right off.

So (where was I? Ah, yes) fandom it is :-)

[blackboggart.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, fandom has a special place in my heart. I first got into it when I was 13/14 (And now I'm nearly 20, so o.0 it's been a long time!) and I was having a lot of social and school trouble. It's what first encouraged me to start drawing. I had always drawn, but not that often, and never with any great desire to get better.

But since then--the desire to draw and improve hasn't stopped. Just gotten stronger and stronger. I'm aiming to eventually make it into a career, and since I'm young my dreams haven't quite been crushed yet. *grins*

Despite all that, I don't see fandom as a training ground. It's definitely a place where I can improve--but it's a fun place. I take art classes to if I want a training ground, which can be very stressful at times. (Mainly teachers ranting about fantasy art being the root of all evil. *laughs*) And in fandom I can draw what I most enjoy, and still get great and positive feedback.

To get back to the point, I wouldn't quite call fandom a hobby for me, but I don't consider it a stop along my career path. If I ever get anywhere with my artwork in future, you can definitely count on me to still be around fandom, geeking out and drawing fanart. *grins*

[conob.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting some of the results for those of us who didn't have time to sift through them. :)

The science fiction fandom has had the acronym "FIAWOL" for some decades now.... It's interesting to see (parts of) how differently that sense can be interpreted.

[drgaellon]

Fandom is definitely a lifestyle!

Reminds me of the old Trek fandom acronyms FIAWOL and FIJAGDH (Fandom Is A Way Of Life and Fandom Is Just A God Damned Hobby). Someone ought to icon those....

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Great post! I do wonder whether the obsession with seeing fandom as training wheels may be in part due to a younger demographics over the past 5-15 years (i.e., high school and college students may still be searching for a career whereas zine day and early internet day fans seemed to be older on average and often already employed/in a career) and the increasing visibility to an outside world that cannot seem to comprehend valued endeavor that doesn't stand in the service of something (I think the best example was the Wall Street Journal article which *only* focused on fanfic as stepping stone).

[das-kabinett.livejournal.com]

For me, fandom is a training ground in the sense that it shaped my personality in a very real way. I got into fandom absurdly (and scarily, thinking of all the really, really inappropriate things I was exposed to) young, and it's really changed the way I look at the world.

Without fandom, I probably wouldn't have persisted in my childhood love of science fiction and comic books, because "non-internet" fandoms feel so male dominated its absurd. I feel uncomfortable and out of place in a way I never do in our female dominated space.

Without fandom, I would probably be a worse person. I grew up deep in the heart of Hate-ville; at the most basic level, the fact that I feel strongly about queer rights is solely based on the exposure I gained through fandom. I know more about computers, as others have mentioned. I write better, I critique better, I am able to communicate using a computer (something I've found is a rare skill).

Interestingly, though, the way fandom has most helped me is that it forced me to be able to pick up the rules of an environment based on context cues. I never really had a mentor or anything in fandom -- it taught me to learn and be totally self-sufficient when exploring a new community.

So, yeah, regardless of whether or not I want to be a professional writer, fandom has been a training ground.

[fandom-me.livejournal.com]

I'm here from daily_snitch.

Years ago I wandered into Harry Potter and hung around a while. I wrote some (too much) fanfic that was just flatly not good. I also saw some people (like Sushi) doing amazing things and then going on to pursue professional writing careers. I think, perhaps, because of the enormity of the gulf between what I was doing and what she was doing it was easier to say "well, she's going to be a professional writer, this is just a hobby for me." and let things go.

In reality I was just bad. A few years role-playing online, some language lessons, a beta and another fandom and I'm producing stuff that I'm proud of. I know, now, what I didn't get then.

Producing that kind of work is *hard as hell*, it takes a lot of time, and most people aren't ever going to make - or want to make - the leap to writing original fiction for money. There's also something vaguely bewildering to me in the attitude that sometimes crops up that if you're any good and people enjoy you , then you're going to keep putting out at all - never mind professionally.

So - it's a hobby but it's a hobby that's work. It's time consuming, stress inducing, and really I'm much happier with it being a labor of love not something I"m paid for.

Which is all a terribly rambly and round-about way of saying: Agreed, entirely agreed and interesting post.

[carmarthen.livejournal.com]

it's a hobby but it's a hobby that's work.

I pretty much feel that way about almost all hobbies. Learning to cook well and not just enough to feed myself? Lots of kitchen disasters and frustrations. Martial arts? Tons of work, sweat, frustration, and bruises. Backpacking? Cold, wet, exhausting, blistery, and bug-bitten (but so worth it to get that far from people and see amazing things). Etc.

Most hobbies aren't any easier than work (and one person's hobby is another person's job), and most of us care enough to put effort into doing them well, or we'd find different hobbies.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I pretty much feel that way about almost all hobbies. Learning to cook well and not just enough to feed myself? Lots of kitchen disasters and frustrations.

Yes, absolutely! MDH and I are major foodies; we spent a lot of money outfitting our kitchen with pro-level equipment a few years ago and then we spent years working on improving our cooking skills. It was totally a hobby, and one we shared, so it was a great deal of fun. But whenever we have friends or family over for dinner, MDH will get the inevitable "Why don't you open a restaurant?" comment (he's the chef and I'm his sous chef), and he has learned to just roll with it and take it as a compliment. What people don't seem to get is that being a chef in a restaurant is hard, hard hard -- the hours are long and it's incredibly stressful, not to mention the fact that the majority of restaurants close before they can turn a profit. That doesn't sound like fun. We cook for fun and pleasure, so why would we want to ruin it by making it our job?

There's this whole idea floating around that you should be able to take something you love and make a living from it, but honestly? I think that's incredibly naive. It's like saying you love a place you vacation to so much you decide to move there. But when you get there, it isn't as much fun because you can't afford to do all the cool stuff you do when you're there on vacation. It kind of ruins it.

I feel the exact same way about writing. I love it because it's not what I do for a living. I can simply enjoy it. :-)

[rubymiene.livejournal.com]

Interesting point about fanfic's relation to careers other than professional writer.
I have always thought of writing as a hobby, but fanfic did help my writing a lot. I wrote some original fiction in high school, but never had the time or dedication (and still don't) to put together a novel. Fiction writing will always be just a hobby. Since I'm going to be a lawyer, and thus do a lot of writing, I guess fanfic will help my career.

[kitsune13.livejournal.com]

Chiming in to the fanfic vs. published fic discussion:

I agree with everyone who says it's silly and kind of offensive to value fanfiction only as some kind of "training ground" for publishing, and that if you don't publish, or don't want to, you're a bad writer. That's just ridiculous. One of the joys of fanfiction is that you have a hell of a lot of artistic freedom -- you're not limited to writing stuff that publishers think they can sell. "Published" (as opposed to "non-published") is not a marker of artistic quality, it's a marker that a publisher thinks it can make money from your book.

Also, on the issue of fandom as profession, I'm in kind of a weird space: I just finished a dissertation on Potter fanfic, so fandom did help me in my profession of academic.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Do people who move on to professional writing also keep writing fan fiction?

I know many people who write professionally and also write fanfic. It's not a one or the other thing. It also doesn't mean giving up your current job.

I certainly don't agree with the idea that only bad writers never want to get published, though. (In fact, I know of many bad and mediocre writers who have been published, and many good ones who haven't!)