Exhibit on homosexuality in nature

[emmagrant01]

As posted by clara_swift:

It is not what you would expect to see when you take your children on a Sunday outing to the natural history museum: a giant photograph of one male giraffe humping another, or two whales sparring with giant penises. This, however, is Norway, where — for better or worse — the normal rules do not apply.

I love these sorts of stories because they just reinforce what I already believe about the nature of sexuality. After reading the many negative comments on the article, though, I can't help but wonder what impact such an exhibit would have on people who believe homosexuality is a choice/sin/abomination. I mean, we already know such folks won't be persuaded by science or logic -- their beliefs are held very centrally, and beliefs are incredibly difficult to change. Maybe stories like this only reinforce their beliefs, as indicated in some of those comments.

What do you think? Would this sway any of the bigots you know?

Comments

[kerryblaze.livejournal.com]

The last person that I debated on homosexuality and I bought up the point that homosexuality exists in nature too, their response was, "Their animals and we're human! We're not supposed to act like animals!"

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right -- some of the comments on that article say basically the same thing. Some days I think it's just going to take a few more generations before things really change. Someday the people who think homosexuality is "unnatural" will have to hide their views like racists do today -- it won't be acceptable to be homophobic in public anymore.

Of course, last week, my MIL referred to brazil nuts as "n*gg*r toes", and when I expressed offense, she just rolled her eyes at me. :-P

[florahart]

Probably not...after all, if dolphins have nasal sex (and dude, that is not just homosexuality; it's, like, gay breathplay in the animal kingdom), clearly that's not about relationship it's about finding a hole and sticking your dick in it.

*refrains from making comment about some human animals and their appendage-management*

Anyway, yes, I think the folks who need convincing would just be like, "but it's just because they can't tell/don't know the difference." This is of course INSANE because hi, different smells and feels and if we think they manage everything else by smell like territorial marking etc, um... but it's the statement that would be made.

Also, this: (there are not many amphibians, gay or straight, this far north). cracked me up.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL, gay breathplay! The nasal sex was pretty wild.

And yes, good points here. I think that one of the big problems is that many of the people who think homosexuality is a sin also see sex outside of marriage (or even recreational sex, sodomy between heterosexual couples, and masturbation) as a sin too. Sexual urges are considered base in nature, and it's the duty of a good, rational human being to repress them and not give in to them. So yeah, the idea that animals have "homosexual urges" would just be more evidence that it's a base thing to be "overcome" through prayer/willpower/repression/whatever.

*sigh*

[ou-peachus.livejournal.com]

Pretty much what was said in the first comment - No, not really. I come from a deeply southern Christian family. I moved away from home, am bisexual (not that they know that), and majored in anthropology. (And I quote - 'You don't do that evolution junk, do ya'? I didn' come from no monkey'.)

But back to the artwork - I think it will, in fact, strengthen some people's belief that homesexuality is wrong because God *did* make us above and different from animals. That animals have no concept of sin and can not, therefore, be accountable for such acts. Most of them believe that animals will not go to heaven (or anywhere) because they are (insert*dreamySpikesmirk*) soulless.

Sadly, another aspect that comes from this stupid idea that we are so much more removed from animals is that its okay to treat them badly because they are *just animals*.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I hear you on the background thing -- I was raised southern Baptist. :-P

And yeah, that really does seem to be the case. I keep forgetting that there's a whole lot of people out there who believe that humans are not animals, and all the baggage that goes along with that. :-/

[carvedwood.livejournal.com]

From the comments, it looks as though the people who are reacting negatively are falling into two camps - sometimes both.
One camp is mistaking the assertion that homosexuality is natural, as meaning that all members of a species are always homosexual, and that heterosex isn't happening at all, ever. Which means that these are the people who aren't actually reading the article - there are several examples in the article of how some animals will have relations with a member of the opposite sex for procreation, before returning to their homosexual mate(s).
The second camp is still insisting that there is a line between animal and human. They have lots of justifications - God made humans different, evolution gave humans the ability to choose heterosexuality, humans get married, blah blah blah. I think this is the camp that is the most severe in denial when it comes to acceptance of the implications in that exhibit. Religion and cultural morality are both insisting that homosexuality is wrong at the same time it is insisting that humans are something other than merely animal.
In a way, of course they're right - for example, I've read an article (or watched a documentary) showing how sometimes bull seals will try to rape the cubs. So obviously we shouldn't be taking all of our moral judgements from the examples of animals. There is a difference between what is natural and what is moral. But then, this exhibit is not so much addressing moral issues as it is demonstrating natural behaviors. So, like the first camp, the second camp is pretty much missing the point of the exhibit - debunking the myth that homosexuality is "against nature."

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right -- camp one haven't read the article, but are reacting to the subject matter. Either that, or they're idiots.

the second camp is pretty much missing the point of the exhibit - debunking the myth that homosexuality is "against nature."

Yes, exactly. The exhibit says nothing about religion or morality; it's about something that occurs in nature. They're not pointing at animals and saying, "See, it's not a sin!" It's a subtle difference, but one a lot of commenters are missing.

[abbycadabra.livejournal.com]

Very interesting read. Thanks for the link, Emma! :)

As for whether it will actually sway any of the bigots I know... Well, no. Most likely, most probably, definitely not. Unfortunately, a bigot is a bigot is a bigot, and they like it that way. They won't change, they'll hold their ground firm and grasp at whatever they can. It was obvious in many of the comments-- people still won't admit that homosexuality is not a choice. The way they see it, we're above animals, and it's our God-given blessing to be able to repress any sinful urges. Sad, I know.

But you know who I do think this will impact? The youth. The kids who go there and love the animals and see that homosexuality isn't badawfulwrong. And that's what's important, if you ask me. They're the future, after all.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think that's a good point. Kids going to the exhibit will absorb some tolerance, hopefully. I like to think that one of the benefits of youthful rebellious tendencies is that it allows kids to revisit and reject some of their parents' bigotry. ;-)

[glasshouses.livejournal.com]

Nah, it wouldn't convince anyone, unless they are harboring latent bestiality urges :-D

Also, while animals obviously do engage in homosexual behavior, I think if male animals had a choice between a receptive female in heat, or their hump-buddy Larry, they'd jump at the female (literally).

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

In the article, though, they do cite examples of animals who wouldn't do that, who seem to be hard-wired to be attracted to the same sex. And there's a lot of variability in nature, which reflects what we know about human sexuality. Very few of us are absolutely gay or straight. :-)

[spiderhides.livejournal.com]

i heard about that i always wanted to see it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It would be cool to get to see the exhibit!

[novin-ha.livejournal.com]

I agree that this article proves that homosexuality is natural, not just cultural - but I don't think it automatically follows that natural=/=not sin. I mean, for lions it is usual behaviour to kill other male lions' cubs so that the female is in heat earlier and they can rape her. I am in no way saying that I consider homosexuality a sin - just that it's not exactly a final argument for tolerance.

It does however show them what is and isn't natural - and the article is awfully funny :D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right, and someone above made the same point. The exhibit is saying anything about religion or morality; they're simply demonstrating that homosexuality is present in many, many species, and isn't exclusively a human thing. Thus it's something that's hardwired into us, and not simply a product of human culture.

And yes, the problem is that people who think homosexuality is a sin won't be swayed by the fact that it exists in non-human animals.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

If it gets people talking, that's (hopefully) a good thing! :-)

[puppydifranco.livejournal.com]

Is it bad that I am envious of the animals?? They don't have to deal with ignorant ass people on a regular basis trying to shove their beliefs down their throats... "I am not a Christian, I don't believe in your concepts of sin, nor do I believe in hell" just earns the response "well, you're going to hell anyway"

I think I should start walking around being self-righteous and telling folks that they are going to Azkaban... it doesn't matter that you don't believe in it, you are going there anyway... because my imaginary best friend is better than yours, and mine tells me that since you were born curly hair instead of straight hair that you are an abomination.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL, I know, right? It's just like how little kids don't know to be sexist or racist -- they have to be taught to be hateful. Left on their own, they don't tend to judge people by the color of their skin, or whatever.

[atdelphi.livejournal.com]

There's not much that can change the mind of a bigot, considering bigoted beliefs aren't usually based on logic. But I do know several people who don't have a problem with homosexuality per se, but who do think it's largely a choice - or that it's a recent invention. For that reason, I think it's always a cool thing to open dialogues about sexual variation throughout nature and history.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Well, most beliefs aren't based on logic, are they? ;-) But yeah, it's especially difficult to change beliefs. People have to really think very hard about conflicting evidence and have reasonable alternatives to their belief. And most people just aren't willing to think that much. :-/

[mrshamill.livejournal.com]

Would this sway any of the bigots you know?

Of course not. Being a bigot means you never have to actually think for yourself OR indulge in any kind of logic.

sigh

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL! Sad, but true. :-P

[charlotteschaos.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I'm being harsh because I'm in that sort of mood, but I've long given up convincing anyone in the "my imaginary friend doesn't like it, so neither do I" crowd.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know -- you just can't argue with people when you have no common ground. I don't believe in their "imaginary friend", so the fact that they base their view of the world on what he says if baffling to me. Likewise, they are baffled that I don't believe in their imaginary friend. It never works out. :-P

[munti.livejournal.com]

I don't think it would change the minds of those who really believe it's a sin. But hopefully it will have an impact on people who don't have these strong opinions. As said on the museum's homepage: "We feel confident that a greater understanding of how extensive and common this behaviour is among animals, will help to de-mystify homosexuality among people. - At least, we hope to reject the all too well known argument that homosexual behaviour is a crime against nature." (http://www.nhm.uio.no/againstnature/index.html) (http://www.nhm.uio.no/againstnature/index.html)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think that's the best to hope for: to demystify homosexuality, so it isn't something that garners gasps and giggles. If people buy that it's just something that happens in nature, that's a start.

[sirryluv.livejournal.com]

Would this sway any of the bigots you know?

Probably not extreme bigots, or even most, but I think I can see a few of my "less than gay friendly" family members seeing reason in this.

And-- how fascinating that a government is actually encouraging the people to explore taboos and delve into the not so prim past.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know -- isn't that cool? The Republicans pretty much shut down the National Endowment for the Arts in the 1980s here because they didn't want tax dollars going to what they deemed "inappropriate" art.

[dartmouthtongue.livejournal.com]

Er, I guess nobody here ever heard the comment, "It's unnatural." It's not going to convince anyone bigoted, but I like that it eliminates one of their arguments.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's true -- you can't say it's unnatural!

I'm not hardline on many things, but this issue...

[ellie-nor.livejournal.com]

Never explain, never apologise.

Not a motto I usually live by, but in this case I believe it's the only workable approach.

Whenever we get sucked into explaining same-sex attraction to bigots, we're hooked into playing on their terms. We're put on the defensive, as if same-sex attraction were something that needed to be justified.

Same-sex attraction, whether acted upon or not, does not need any justification. It happens, just as other-sex attraction happens. That's as far as I'm ever willing to go in explanation or apology.

Re: I'm not hardline on many things, but this issue...

[ellie-nor.livejournal.com]

Never explain, never apologise.

This, of course, only applies to bigots.

I just wanted to add that the only way bigots' minds can be changed, IME, is by changing their hearts first, e.g. by meeting and getting to know people in the group they're bigotted against.

[allysonsedai.livejournal.com]

Some of the bigots I know would not be swayed if Jesus himself came out of the closet.

:/

...Good story, though! :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL! I find it bizarre that so many of the people who wear those WWJD bracelets don't seem to know much about what Jesus actually taught. :-P

[emeraldjay.livejournal.com]

I think the comment on there referring to the praying mantis was hilarious. Obviously the person doesn't know or forgets to consider that the male praying mantis has to have it's head removed in order to copulate. But I am sure there are a lot of women out there who would like to rip their mate's head off after sex.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Bwahaha! "I told you, the clitoris over here!... Oops."

:-D

[canellaphile.livejournal.com]

The bigots I know are so entrenched in bigotry that they'd just laugh and use it to make jokes about homosexuals. I don't know many on-the-fence bigots...

[allysonsedai.livejournal.com]

I don't know many on-the-fence bigots...

*spits out drink*

I'm sorry, but I just got a mental image of a burly redneck guy being all, "I hate them damn fags... ooh, except for that one - lookit that tight ass!"

[jedirita.livejournal.com]

Awesome exhibit! Although dolphins having nasal sex -- ewww.

But to the question of whether "bigots" would change their mind after an exhibit like this -- the thing is, humans are very emotional about sex. People's position on homosexuality, whether for or against, rests on an emotional basis which we then use logic to support. It's not so much people's minds that need to change as their hearts. When people see a gay couple who have been together for fifty years, or taking care of their partner who has Alzheimer's, or when they know a gay person whose child is taken away from them because of their sexuality -- or simply when their own child turns out to be gay -- these are the things that change people's hearts.

If you think about slavery, it wasn't logical arguments that swayed public opinion. It was Uncle Tom's Cabin and slave narratives that made the horror of slavery real to people.

[melianebraith.livejournal.com]

I always wondered why dolphins seem to be smiling so much. *grins*

Excellent post and point about hearts needing to be changed. Generally you have to get the argument out of the abstract 'political issue' terms and put real human faces on it to get people thinking.

I've been there myself and I've gone through this with my own son, whom I've heard making comments because of things he's heard from his dad and that side of the family and I've just calmly said, 'Yeah? What about C. and P. and K. and and...." All friends and family that I know he genuinely likes, and I ask him to really think about what he's saying and does he think that maybe it would be really hurtful to them? We've had some really good conversations actually. But yes, it definitely does help to bring it down to a personal level.

[ashe-frost.livejournal.com]

The biggots I know would demand to know why the nice Christian Republican government isn't funding research to find out which animals are gay so we can have this "unnaturalness" eradicated before it gets "out of hand".

[callmetiff.livejournal.com]

How could lions become one of the most successful animals on the planet, powerful and strong, if they didn't breed well? Being gay is a choice that humans make. I have not met a gay person who has had what I would consider a normal childhood.

David Gibbons, London, England

I think I just threw up a little.

Hurrah for the Blacktail deer for not putting up with such nonsense. This is the most disgraceful attempt to jusitfy perverse behaviour purely to please one's senses. Just because animals can't control themselves doesn't mean we should. After all we are the highest species on the planet - or so I previously thought.

Simon, Nairobi, Kenya

This man seems to be pleased with his ability to control himself from perverse behavior. Also, he said, "Hurrah." Pff. Homo.

As for the question that was actually asked, I haven't really met any bigots who didn't change their mind after just having met a gay person.

[melianebraith.livejournal.com]

That comment about the 'normal childhood' caught me funny as well. If it worked that way, then I, with my upbringing would certainly be a lesbian instead of straight and my gay friend would surely be straight considering he had pretty much a "Leave It To Beaver" childhood. And how do you explain my gay cousin and his straight brother, both of whom were raised in the same normal loving family?

I dunno. I am straight so I can hardly claim to be any sort of authority on what it's like to find out you're gay. However, I've never really bought into the idea of it being a choice, per se. Attraction is a funny thing. Why do any of us choose who we do? God knows there have been times on an intellectual level I've wished I could have fallen for someone, but the attraction just wasn't there. The heart wants what the heart wants. *shrug* You can choose whether you act on it or not, but I don't think you choose who you emotionally connect with.

As for convincing other people? Depends. Some people simply refuse to consider anything beyond what they believe, full stop. I don't waste time arguing with anyone who has a completely closed mind. But if I sense a willingness in someone to at least consider a different opinion, I simply give mine and hope it plants a seed. And I talk to my kids a lot (and their friends) because I think it's important to teach kids to embrace differences and that it's ok to be who you are.

[phix-me-up.livejournal.com]

Hey, that was a seriously interesting article you linked to up there.

I'd just like to drop an interesting tidbit about penguin homosexuality. I read in a science journal that during mating season, there is the courtship between the birds, and sometimes you'd see two male penguins rubbing beaks and basically, undergoing the courtship ritual. Eventually when the time to lay eggs comes, they find a smooth pebble which is about the same size and shape as an egg, and "hatch" it. Interesting behavior, isn't it?

And no, I doubt it would make any difference to what bigots think of homosexuality. Because people find it hard to tear away from conventionality. Look at the current political situation with Muslims and in general, the supposed "civilized" world. I'm not sure where you're from or your religion, but I hope I don't offend you with this note. I tried explaining to a friend, after taking a module which had a rather large focus on the Islamic tradition, the Islam was inherently not evil, and she just couldn't see it. I guess homosexuality is just like any other form of prejudice, racial, religious, whatever it is. It's not what the people know, it's what they want to know, and that's why exhibits like these wouldn't make a difference.

Oh, but I would so very much like to visit it thought. The first time I saw the penis of a male sperm whale (Dead and stuffed though. They exhibited the penis in a separate display.), it was all rather...amusing. =)

[bruisesonguitar.livejournal.com]

I don't know about helping the homophobes understand, most some of them won't open their minds enough to listen to an intelligent argument. But I have used the homosexuality in nature example to help some very religious (and very gay) friends of mine to believe that they are not committing a sin.

Thanks so much for the link. I will be posting the link in a GLBTI support group that I mod. :D