Grumble about moderated communities

[emmagrant01]

You know, I totally understand the need for moderated communities. Some people want to start a community that focuses on precisely what they want to talk about, no more and no less. I understand that there are a lot of crazies out there, and when a comm has open membership, anyone can join, and they may post things that are off-topic for that comm. I understand that this can be frustrating for people who need to tightly control everything in their lives. Moderated submission means you get to choose what posts get made, and you get to filter out the trash. Seriously, I get it.

But you know, it's a little annoying to have your post rejected when it's accompanied by a rude comment from a moderator. I don't mind the rejection because I understand that there are rules and maybe I didn't follow them as closely as I could have. I could have been a bit more careful, but I thought my post was a good contribution to the community. So you know, I do mind the unnecessary rudeness. Why would I want to participate in a community at all if my attempts at participation are met with snarky comments about the fact that I didn't jump precisely as high as the mod wanted? It makes me want to go elsewhere. It doesn't promote open discussion and contribution of ideas, because everyone is constantly looking over her shoulder, wondering if she's doing it wrong and if the mod will mock her publicly if she does.

The public mocking bothers me as well. I've had that happen to me before when the mistake I made was an honest typo when inserting a URL. The mod commented on my post that it was (a) stupid of me not to check that the link worked (a bit hard to do on a moderated comm, especially since I'm not checking back every 3 minutes to see if my post is up and there's no telling when it will be approved) and (b) holding me up as an example of how not to post a link, as if I were completely incapable of navigating on the web on my own.

There seems to be a "least common denominator" assumption online, and that really bothers me. I try very hard to treat everyone online as a person who is probably not all that different from me, who is intelligent, well-educated, hard-working, has feelings, has a life outside of fandom and LJ, and so on. And so I am surprised when I don't get the same treatment in return. Fortunately, that is an infrequent event, as most of y'all are really nice, pleasant, welcoming people. Don't get me wrong; I'm hardly in tears when this sort of thing happens. But I am fairly bewildered. All I can think of is that for some people, moderating a community or an archive or a discussion list or board is a power trip, a way to feel like they are important in their little online world. When they belittle others for not following their arbitrary rules to the letter, it must make them feel better, smarter, more powerful.

How sad for them.

Comments

[zhonnika.livejournal.com]

o_O

I just don't GET some people. I think you're on to something about it being a power trip, and what a sad little thing to be all high and mighty about. I mean, a monkey can create and moderate a community.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know. :-P

[madlori.livejournal.com]

It doesn't promote open discussion and contribution of ideas, because everyone is constantly looking over her shoulder, wondering if she's doing it wrong and if the mod will mock her publicly if she does.

Although I am a hardcore devotee of their site, I feel this way about the TWOP forums. Damn, but them mods are strict. I'm at 40% warning for what seem like really minor infractions.

[coconutswirl.livejournal.com]

Ah, this brings back fond memories of Fametracker (run by the same guys). I was close to being banned once for saying I liked a particular actress in a particular film.

[wook77.livejournal.com]

You have got to be shitting me that they did this. Who the hell publically mocks a person like that?

What comm was this, out of curiosity? I just want to know what one to avoid in the future.

I'll agree with the powertrip. Especially as there are certain comms and archives that allow authors with complete crap-stories (meaning grammatical mistakes, canon mistakes, and various other things) on them but will nitpick another because they misspell a "hex" or something.

*pets* I'm sorry that this happened to you. I'll get my smiting stick, yeah?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

This is more of a general statement of frustration with several comms, really. And I'd rather not name names. No need to cause wank. ;-)

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

I hear you. Rudeness of all types is intolerable, yet people seem to do online what they would never do face-to-face. And some of them do it with so much vicious glee.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yeah, some people hide behind their icons and their mod badges, and treat people worse than they'd dare to IRL.

[clevermomi.livejournal.com]

It does suck.
I've had it done to me on a non-fandom related community, and even though I wasn't a mess about it I was still pretty miffed, then left the community. In hindsight I should have just stuck it out, but I didn't want to be a part of someone's ego-induced power trip anymore.

It's hard because on the one hand, I do love my other moderated comms because it DOES help keep it on topic. And I hate having 23507205971057 messages about crap when that's not what it's about. Meh, I dunno.
I'm sorry they did that to you though, you're always so kind and respectful of others (that I see here on LJ anyway). Talk about being assholes to the wrong person, and one certainly not deserving.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm complaining about a few comms here, some fandom and some non-fandom, but NONE are HP comms, now that I think about it. Hmmm...

Like I said, modded comms definitely have their place, but the mods could at least be nice about it.

[karaz.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything nice to say...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

So you're saying nothing at all? ;-)

[helens78]

All I can think of is that for some people, moderating a community or an archive or a discussion list or board is a power trip, a way to feel like they are important in their little online world. When they belittle others for not following their arbitrary rules to the letter, it must make them feel better, smarter, more powerful.

Hooboy, have I run into this one. Arbitrary anything raises my hackles; arbitrary standards for posting or behavior are a sign that I don't want to be involved in that community, whatever it is. I really think that setting up rules that are unclear is a way for people to preserve their ability to put down anyone they don't happen to like, and to do it "by the book" -- which to me is just a really unpleasant way of dealing with other people.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It really is the arbitrariness that was getting me in this case. I just don't see the need for it, except for stroking a few folks' egos. If someone's not violating the spirit of the rules, why be so heavy-handed?

[willowwing.livejournal.com]

It's not just online. There are people like that everywhere and I think you pegged it perfectly. They enjoy being the big fish in their little pond.

I had a graduate professor that had detailed rules about how papers needed to be turned in. No folders... one staple in the upper left hand corner - even to the point of which way tables needed to be turned if they had to be printed landscape. The morning my paper was due, I ran out of staples. I figured that turning it in with one of those black clamps that holds better than a paper clip was preferable to being late. Wrong. He gave it back with a 0. Didn't even read it. The paper was 75% of my grade. I appealed it to the dept. head and won, but jeesh.. what does a staple have to do with my understanding of the material. I've taught classes and when you have 100+ students sure it is a pain when you can't stack the papers neatly and pages get separated but I would never equate a convience with knowledge.

*looks up* Ooops sorry - didn't mean to steal your journal for my own rant.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Argh, that's a horrible story. I'm a teacher myself, and I believe in setting high standards and firm deadlines, but not reading your paper because it had a binder clip on it instead of a staple? That's just fucked up.

[joesther.livejournal.com]

I understand what you're talking about. I had a post removed from a comm that is designed to share files. My post included the URL from which people could download the files I was sharing, and yes, I was held up as an example of what not to do as well. And it's not like others don't make that same mistake all the time in that comm - they do! But for some reason, I was the one that got picked on. No idea why. It was very weird.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Sounds like they were making an example of you. It sucks when it feels like you're being singled out and picked on. :-P

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

That happened to me on a community a while ago. I found an article that I thought might be of interest so I linked it and wrote some commentary regarding it.

It was rejected and I was told the reason why was that it had already been posted. Then the moderator who rejected it sent me a note saying I should do better next time and check the community memories.

So I did that as well as went through a ton of backposts just to be sure and that particular article was never posted.

I left the community.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL -- we might be talking about the same community! ;-)

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Which community is this? *is nosy* E-mail me, if you'd rather not say publicly?

People are twats. Plain and simple. BAH.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

It was several really -- the latest one was just the last straw, and I made this post in frustration. :-P It was starting to look like a trend in modded comms.

[sesptwd.livejournal.com]

A severe case of powertripitis for sure.

BITCH!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Pretty much. I guess that's how some folks get their jollies, though. :-P

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

*hugs*
Sorry that happened to you, hun. I'm curious to which comm this is...

While it's not right, if I see snarky/rude posts and I read comments to it that are snarky/rude I'm not surprised since that would be my first reaction too, but when the post is polite, but maybe has a couple errors and the comments are bitchy I wonder what the hell is wrong the the commenter. This sort of reminds me of this time when an LJer's essay on Arthur Weasley was linked to from one of the fandom newletters and people ripped her apart for it - she wrote it in English which wasn't her first language and had some grammatical errors. Like 90-95% of all the comments were rude and belittling, it was really sad to see.
Heh, that was a long tangent...

I think sometimes people forget that behind the monitors there are real people. I seriously doubt that most people on the internet would say some of the things I see to people in RL, and only do so because of the relative anonimity.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think some folks forget the people behind the icons are real people. That's the cause of so much wank, really.

[novembersnow.livejournal.com]

As far as I see it (in life as well as LJ), rules are one thing, even strict or relatively arbitrary rules, because they can still be enforced with a level of respect. But there's never a need for rudeness, and there's certainly no call for public mockery. I've never understood how people get off on that sort of thing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right. It's not the rules or even the rejection; it's how it's handled. When mods are rude, it only turns people off. They lose respect for the rules, in the end, which defeats the purpose of the comm.

[beren-writes.livejournal.com]

Even if a member really pisses off a mod the reply should not be done in public and there is no need to be snarky at all, even in private; that's just childish. If people were just nice to each other the world would be a far happier place. *hugs*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Absolutely. Why be mean? It doesn't serve any purpose. :-P

[araythea.livejournal.com]

I run a moderated community, but it's only the members that are moderated due to age restrictions, not the posts made by members. I've had limited experience with other moderated (posts) communities because it all seems like a pain in the ass. But you've hit the nail on the head. Powertripping. I've never understood why people feel the need to be rude to others. I've had people piss me off and I can be less than pleasant but just because of a typo, or because you didn't play close enough attention to the rules? That's just pointless. I would think that common courtesy says that calmly point out what happened or what rule was broken, there's no need to be nasty.

*hugs*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Right -- if I violate a bit of the letter of the rules but not the spirit, a gentle reminder would be fine. I'd be embarrassed and wouldn't screw up again. But when someone is mean to me, it has the opposite effect. :-P

[furiosity.livejournal.com]

The mod publicly mocks members and no one takes her down a peg for it? Well, bully for the members, then. The mod's a twat, but if people let her get away with it? A community -- any community -- is only as good as its members. The mod is nothing; any power they hold is only as much as they imagine. Without the members, communities do not exist. If the members refuse to put up with crap, the mod will find herself increasingly unable to start any crap. Sure, she might go batshit and delete the community, but that's what archiving tools like Teleport Pro are for.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The comm I'm talking about here isn't a fandom-related comm, so there isn't the tight sense of community that you might find on a fandom comm. That might actually make the situation a little worse, because there's even less of a reason for people to be nice to each other. :-P

[divinereverie.livejournal.com]

Ahhh fandom. It's like high school, only without perky boobs :(

[physixxx.livejournal.com]

hahahahahhh!



ahem

[galdralag.livejournal.com]

Politeness goes a long way, especially on the interwebs where we have limited ability to judge irony, for instance.

What makes little online gods get this power high? I really have no idea. I'm the administrator of a message board, and that responsibility makes me tread very softly whenever I have to sort out a violation of rules or of proper forum behaviour. I want to be taken seriously, I want my words to carry weight when I need to interfere and I want to be seen as consistent and fair.

By being rude to posters you ensure that they don't respect you, and that they won't respect your community. You ensure that the community rules lose their weight. Basically, you go trigger-happy with a sawn-off shotgun pointed at your foot. Sure, you may feel like the king of your wee anthill for a while, but it won't do you any good in the long run, so I really don't get why some people do it.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

By being rude to posters you ensure that they don't respect you, and that they won't respect your community. You ensure that the community rules lose their weight.

Yes, absolutely. The same thing is true in many areas of life, isn't it? I'm a teacher, so that's a line I have to carefully walk quite often.

[laughingcamel.livejournal.com]

WOW, you are a much better person then they or I am. I would have ratted out the comm. that this, and whoever was rude to you, well you can already tell what they seem to be like, using you as a public example.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

There's no point in ratting out the comm. It would only make me look petty, you know? And like I said, I didn't exactly follow the posting rules. I'm just objecting to the mod's rudeness. ;-)

[arielpotter.livejournal.com]

Well, this is the living proof that sadly some of the jerks that we meet every day in RL are actually in the Internet life too. Rudeness is everywhere, and even more sadly than the first thing, people with an ego of the size of Canada are everywhere too.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I think it's easier for them to hide on the net, too. :-P

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

Hee. Now you can have the sense of, "cripes, I guess I REALLY don't want to be in that community" and know not a whit of it is sour grapes. It's deserved.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

There are several comms I no longer participate in for exactly that reason, and it's really too bad.

[yaycoffee.livejournal.com]

Man. That sucks. THEY suck.

If they continue to piss off their members like that, they won't have a community to get all power-trippy over for much longer.

It never ceases to amaze me how totally juvenile people act online sometimes... *boggle*

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

This isn't a fandom comm, and I think that makes this sort of thing easier to get away with. People are much more strangers to each other than they are in fandom. :-P

[snottygrrl.livejournal.com]

I try very hard to treat everyone online as a person who is probably not all that different from me ... I'm hardly in tears when this sort of thing happens. But I am fairly bewildered.

you've just described my life. not just online, but out in the world, too. i am constantly stunned by folk's behavior both on and off line. things like you talk about where there is purposeful control and belittling going on (which makes me want to both smack them and pet them, because i biting tiger is usually scared and hurting), and the thoughtless actions people do by just not taking the time to realise how their actions/words effect others.

and i think it is important to remind folk every now and again that our actions do have a affect on each other.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

And it's so much easier to be mean to someone online because they aren't a real person staring at you. You don't see their reaction. You don't even have to acknowledge that they're real.

[truwest.livejournal.com]

Sadly, a certain level of unnecessary nastiness seems to be inevitable in fandom. It's not ubiquitous -- as you pointed out, many/most fans are polite/well-meaning, much or most of the time. But it does happen, and too often IMO.

In fairness to fandom, this problem isn't unique to it. There's no shortage of tinpot dictators or attention whores in the world.

But I do believe that fandom, like some other environments, is attractive to these folks because audiences are already in place, and the barriers to participation are so low. It's easy for somebody with an ego itch to show up online and act out their personal issues on the pre-existing stage of fandom.

Myself, it's a big reason why I've stayed on the outskirts of Fandom Planet. I have little patience for rude people, narcissists or drama queens, online or off. Life's too short.

That's one reason I really enjoy reading your journal. You seem to be very front-and-center involved in fandom, yet you seem to keep things on the high road. You express opinions and can disagree effectively without insulting or belittling other people. You just seem like a positive source of good vibes and good behavior re: online community, and that's a happy thing.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

In fairness to fandom, this problem isn't unique to it.

Oh, absolutely. The comm that I happen to be complaining about isn't even a fandom comm, which I think makes it a bit worse, because there's really no sense of community. At least in fandom, people are worried about their social connections. If you piss off someone important, the wank could come back and bite you on the ass. That doesn't stop some people, of course, but I think it's a little bit harder to get away with such behavior in fandom than it is in looser internet communities.

And thanks! I appreciate that quite a lot! :-)