Friday night round-up

[emmagrant01]

I signed up for hp_springsmut! W00t! That will be my third fic exchange this year, heh.

Roger Ebert on the Tonight Show, talking about the Harry Potter films: "For the seventh one, Harry will be 17. Do you think that one will be rated R?"
Jay Leno: "I'm not going there."

*grins*

We went to see the film of Rent tonight! It was a lot better than I expected, actually. It was weird to hear some of the song lyrics being spoken, though!

Mark: "December 24, 9 pm, eastern standard time. From here on in, I shoot without a script. See if anything comes of it."

It's just weird to be able to recite dialogue along with a film you're seeing for the first time! The music was "slicker", more produced, which was interesting, though I did miss the raw feeling of the stage version. I have seen the stage show at least a dozen times over the last nine (gulp!) years, and I cry when Angel dies, every time -- and I cried harder tonight than I have in a while. They did a good job with that storyline, I thought. I was worried they would go overboard and make it melodramatic, but it worked well. The funeral scene was heartwrenching, especially when Tom starts singing "I'll Cover You" by the coffin. *sniffles* God, I am SO in love with Jesse Martin right now! I need to find some Law & Order -- it's always on some channel somewhere, isn't it?

Is everybody enjoying reading all the holiday exchange fics? I know I am!

I have a question, though. I don't usually read a lot of het fic -- I don't have much time to read, and what I usually read is slash, so I typically only read het if someone I know recs it. So I haven't read a huge sample, certainly, but it seems that characters in het fic are much more likely to declare their love for each other during sex than are slash characters. And this is not just in established relationship fics -- I've seen a few lately where it was said prior to the characters having sex for the first time. Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem to happen in slash so much. And I'm glad, frankly, because it makes me uncomfortable, for several reasons.

(1) It reminds me of guys who thought saying that would get me to sleep with them. Ironically, I was more than happy to have no-strings sex with them before they said it, but their lying to me (whispering it in my ear while their hand was down my pants) pissed me off. It not only seemed creepy and manipulative, it made me wonder if they thought I was stupid enough to believe them. I'd thought we were on the same page about the sex, but no. So when a male character says that to a female character under similar circumstances, it reminds me of that, and it's a turn-off. (And that sort of goes with the whole "women like slash because it's a less personal way to explore their sexuality" theory, huh?)

(2) I fully believe that people should be able to just fuck each other if they want to. There doesn't need to be emotion involved, or commitment -- it can just be about lust, and that's fine. So when (just an example; this isn't from a particular fic) a fic has Harry and Draco snarling at each other one day, then declaring their love for each other the next just before sucking each other off, I have to roll my eyes. The message I get from that is that the author thinks it isn't okay to have sex with someone unless there's at least a pretense of a committed relationship. People have every right to believe that if they like, but it doesn't mean it's true for everyone. Some of the hottest sex I've had in my life was with men I didn't know, and whom I never saw again afterwards. It doesn't mean that I want to live my entire life that way -- I'm quite happily married now. But fan fiction is fantasy for me, and I have wonderful happy committed-relationship I-love-you sex in my RL. I prefer something else in my smutty fanfic, I guess. Those I-love-yous feel not only forced to me; they feel like a moral prescription, like the author is implying that it's only okay for them to have sex because they love each other -- despite the fact that they've never really spoken until today, right? I suppose it bothers me, because it seems like a restriction of a female character's sexual freedom. Why shouldn't Hermione/Ginny/Tonks/whoever be able to just screw a guy if she wants to, without there being twu wuv involved?

(3) This is entirely personal preference, but I'm not a big fan of schmoop. I've never read romance novels, and I have actually tried. Declarations of love, IMO, are better used in other ways in fic. I'd much rather it be said after one person has done something stupid and they're both laughing about it, than just before they have sex for the first time. That feels real to me, and those little moments are the stuff life is made of.

I really don't mean any of this as criticism -- it's just about what I prefer, which is nothing more than my opinion. Thankfully, there's a huge variety of fic out there and there's something for everyone.

I guess my question was whether this sort of thing was more common in het than in slash. Anybody know?

Comments

[goodopinion.livejournal.com]

I agree with the I love you during sex. Sometimes in a fic it will flow well, but usally I feel like it's just been placed there like an after thought. It can sometimes be jarring especially when the two are enemies. Even in RL, no-strings-attached sex and then they say I love you...again please don't. I think it's more common in het but occasionally I'll see it in slash.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if it's more common or not. It could just be the sample I've seen, you know? But yeah, that sort of thing bugs me!

[sciencegeek.livejournal.com]

Mark: "December 24, 9 pm, eastern standard time. From here on in, I shoot without a script. See if anything comes of it."
What's kinda sad is that I started singing the rest of that...I can't wait until I have time to see the movie.

And word about the I love you!sex. I was going to copy and paste, but then realised I just copying and pasting the whole thing...

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

LOL! And he does go on to say, "Instead of my old shit." It was jarring at times. :-P

[meggitymeg.livejournal.com]

It *was* jarring at times, but I think overall it worked out okay (though I still prefer the stage show!). One place I really missed the singing was when Collins meets Angel - the dialogue there was different and I really missed the "an Angel of the first degree - nice tree" line. Also the rhythm of the "I rewired the ATM / at the Food Emporium / to provide an honorarium / to anyone with the code / the code? / A-N-G-E-L" bit. Okay, so, I guess I really just missed hearing Jesse Martin sing his dialogue. :P I'm really glad they didn't try to convert "Light My Candle" into half-song, half spoken, though - I was worried about that.

And, OMG, the funeral scene. I wasn't sure how I was going to react to Angel's death - like you, every time I've seen the show I've bawled my head off - but seeing Collins crying in the bed at the hospice and then singing by the coffin - and then the look on his face during the fight at the interrment - I lost it. Gah. That's always been so much more meaningful to me than Mimi's near brush & the Roger/Mimi resolution. (Which I really think rather sucked, actually. But whatever.)

Okay, enough rambling. :D

[shanna-souzou.livejournal.com]

Indeed, there's no way that Roger/Mimi can compare to Collins/Angel. It always felt to me that R/M were there to propel the action, to create that plot, while all the really good drama was going on with Collins/Angel or Mark, who I think is one of the most brilliantly created characters in the show.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Well, I read very little slash . . . haha, basically for the reasons you describe above, but toward het!fic. I've read a lot of schmoopy, silly slash, and I think I've just concluded -- right now, right at this moment -- that whether one prefers slash or het, or both, one just has to wade through a ton of crap!fic in order to find something that's genuinely hot. I agree with your sentiments that many people probably feel that when they write smut, it needs to be tempered by having some semblance of commitment, or "love" if you will.

I only write het!fic (although I am having to write a slashy thing for a challenge, and I'm freaked the fuck out about this, but that's another comment/post altogether) and I definitely prefer the dynamics that you mention above. I dislike schmoop; I think UNmeaningful sex is hot; I think there are many, many different reasons why two characters (het or gay) would come together sexually, and I am more interested in exploring more complicated scenarios than I am in reading/writing Twoo Wub couples, such as James/Lily (that's how they're so often portrayed, as is Harry/Ginny). Man, I just SQUEE when I find Lily/James or Harry/Ginny that's kind of dark and/or has an attitude. Hmm, let me see if I can find some het!recs for you that you might like . . . *rummages*

Howl by Arakne (piperki) Remus/Hermione.

Roundabout by Arakne. Draco/Hermione. Very well done -- this is not a pairing that I would recommend in almost any other circumstance.

A Little Bit of Light by MissMoppet (tartpants). Lucius/Pansy. Beautifully Nabokovesque. Oh so hot. *fans self*

Control by SaraEK22. Ron/Hermione. Very unschmoopy, albeit the pairing. Hurt/Comfort, but with aggressive!Ron (in a good way).

Flame and Shadow by Maya. Ron/Pansy. The original Ron/Pansy! Excellent characterization piece with Maya's incomparable humor.

Closet Revenge by Bettyblue. Harry/Pansy. Definite PWP; no love to be found!

Unfortunately, schmoop runs the gamut of het and slash fic, and it's really hard to find smutfic that is anything other than a bad Harlequin romance, rehashed with HP characters. I think this is more due to people not knowing how to deviate from certain patterns and themes when writing romance, or thinking outside the box when it comes to sex and sexuality. Also, I definitely think there is a social taboo, unspoken or not, about females just going out and getting laid because they feel like having sex -- no strings attached. This is, of course, an unfortunate attitude. I don't advocate gratuitous promiscuity for women, but hell yeah, I think if a woman wants to go get on with her hot self, then that's her choice and it's not a character issue.

*uses HET icon :> *

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know, one of the great things about LJ is that you can completely filter your fandom experience. You just friend the comms and people whose work is what you like to read, and you ignore the rest! It saves you the work of slogging through the crap, which is nice. It also means that you get an incomplete perspective on the stuff you see, though, and I'm sure that's true for me and het fic. I actually like het fic, and in the SW fandom wrote quite a lot of it. (Obi-Wan/Siri OTP!) But I don't know many of the HP het folks, and I don't know which comms are the good ones. I think it would take some time to find the people who approach it the same way I do, just like it took a year for me to find the slash folks whose work I really like consistently. It's been a while since I've read bad slash, but yeah -- I remember. *shudders*

I think there are many, many different reasons why two characters (het or gay) would come together sexually, and I am more interested in exploring more complicated scenarios than I am in reading/writing Twoo Wub couples

Oh, absolutely! That's definitely what I like to read about. Thanks for the recs! I've actually read Roundabout before, and yes, that's precisely the sort of thing I like. The Lucius/Pansy one sounds quite interesting...

Re the slut taboo: I was thinking about some of the comments that came up in your TWH panel when I was writing this, ironically. I'm a big fan of Ginny in canon, and I was surprised at the vehemence of some folks' comments about her. I had a conversation with someone who insisted that it was canon that she'd been having sex with all the boys she's dated, which sort of blew my mind -- because (besides being untrue) it was definitely intended as a harsh criticism of her behavior. I have issues with people putting moral restrictions on female characters' sexuality, particularly when the same folks don't regard male characters in the same way.

I once had someone make a comment like that on one of my slash fics (someone I later realized was a sockpuppet). They insisted that a guy who bottomed a lot was a slut, but clearly didn't have the same attitude about guys who top a lot. I was like, 0_o??

[dramedy.livejournal.com]

RENT + HP = Love

Mark is a Ravenclaw :P

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Mark/Roger OTP!!!

[shanna-souzou.livejournal.com]

I would have guessed Hufflepuff but maybe that's just my wishful thinking. But c'mon, he's pretty hard-working.

Or is it all about the scarf?

Mark/scarf = OTP!!!1!1

[dramedy.livejournal.com]

it's alll about the scarf.

I personally think that Chris Coloumbus stole that scarf from the first HP movies' set. :) lol

[awaywithpixie.livejournal.com]

mijan dragged me along willingly to see Rent, and it was great! I've never seen the Broadway show, so it was interesting. I didn't know why they had to sing the 'Rent' song before introducing Lenny - that was a little confusing. Some people have been very critical of Chris Columbus' 'clinical' approach to it. I had no problems. I think some of it would have lost impact in the stage show.

And yeah, Roger is hot, hot, hot. I too cried at the same time you did. sniff, sniff.

I wanted to see it again now that I'm back home, but the movie doesn't open here in Australia until March 6. WTF is up with that? Grrrr. I'll just have to search around the net now for a 'preview' copy to tide me over. And they wonder why pirated copies of movies are so popular. Just release it in every country at the same time. Oh God, I'm ranting now, aren't I? I blame jetlag, and will continue to do so until I can stop falling asleep in the middle of the day!

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

You know, I actually groaned when I saw Chris Columbus's name on the screen, heh. But I liked the film a lot. MDH said that he thought a lot of the scenes worked better on the screen than they did on the stage.

And I saw that you had the Avenue Q experience while in NYC! Isn't it great? :-D

[meggitymeg.livejournal.com]

MDH said that he thought a lot of the scenes worked better on the screen than they did on the stage.

Chris said the same thing. (He's only seen the show once, last year.) For me, it was a strange mix of things - I saw the original cast on Broadway, and have spent years listening to the cast recording, so when something didn't really fit quite right, it was very easy to substitute the "right" reaction or expression in its place. Like when Benny first shows up and utters my sister's favorite line of the show - "hey, you bum, yeah you, move over - get your ass off that Range Rover!" CC cut the "yeah you, move over" bit, but Taye Diggs paused long enough that we could all just add it back in our heads. :D

One thing I was really looking forward to about this movie was seeing (most of) the original cast again - and I wonder how they coped with some of the changes that were made? It'd be interesting to find out....

[awaywithpixie.livejournal.com]

And I saw that you had the Avenue Q experience while in NYC! Isn't it great? :-D

Yup... it was absolutely fantastic... whoda thought I'd see Muppet sex? Still grinning and can't get the soundtrack out of my head.

turn offs

[riding-pegasus.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh - I'm so glad you and a bunch of others feel the same about the "I love you" during sex or on the first date. It actually puts me right off instead of turning me on. This reverse effect startled quite a few guys who thought I would take them home afterwards (which I didn't even intend to do with half of them). So manipulative and their assumption of my stupidity is quite alarming. I actually feel offended instead of slowly yielding to their unofficial pleading for horizontal exercise.
There was this one time when I was considering somebody for a "night-out" (when I was single), but then he said those few words. He met me for the first time 30 minutes ago! I sighted, said "yeah, yeah" in a tired voice, immediately lost interest, and looked away for another conversation partner. The guy got upset and asked me, why I don't want to hear it. My direct answer ("I don't believe it and don't need to hear it just for having sex.") didn't go down well - he got flustered and later angry, accusing me of not being a real woman. By that point I laughed him in the face and my - female - friends who got the point also snickered behind their hands. He made a fool of himself - especially since he'd got a bit louder and the whole kitchen (at a party) were listening. The host - a female friend of mine - found it hilarious and thanked me for the entertainment of the hour. *evil.grin*

Btw. I really like your icon right now. :)
Have a nice second Sunday in Advent. Is there actually a special word for that in English?

Re: turn offs

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Oh, that story is a perfect example! Yes, it's manipulative at best, creepy at worst.

I'm not sure that Advent (celebrating the four Sundays before Christmas, at least) is as big a thing in the US as it is in other places. The first time I ever heard of it was when I was in Denmark. But thanks!

[kshpfan.livejournal.com]

I agree 100% with the "I love you"s during, actually, almost anything. It took me almost 3 years before I told one of my best friends that I love him, and I've only told one boyfriend the same.

I think it means so much more when you actually mean it, instead of saying it because you think the other person wants to hear it. And I think that a fic is that much better when it explores why it eventually gets said, instead of all of a sudden there are fluffy bunnies without any real meaning behind them.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

And I think that a fic is that much better when it explores why it eventually gets said

I agree with that -- and I also agree that it's something that means a lot more when the characters don't say it lightly.

Sorry, I'm a RENThead :)

[nimroddess.livejournal.com]

I too enjoyed the movie RENT more than I expected to, as I love the stage show so very much. It was very strange to hear the lyrics spoken, but I was forwarned of that, so it wasn't as jarring as it could have been. My biggest complaint was the music! After being in the same room with a full orchestra + rock band, it was hard to listen to it in the movie. It didn't seem loud enough at all! I likened it to when you see a really great rock show where the band members are all full of energy and jumping around and it's great, but when you buy the CD, the recorded music is so much more low-key and you just feel like, where did all the energy go? So yeah, I basically just felt like all around the movie had low energy, but I still liked it a lot. And the way the montage scenes were cut together did make me cry more than the stage show ever has :( I am now enamored of Jesse Martin also. He was SOO cute, I loved every minute of his performance even though Collins has never been my favourite character in the show. The scene when he and Angel kissed was so real it took my breath away. (TNT plays Law & Order reruns practically all day!)

Did anyone else think Roger looked like Bon Jovi? The shot of him driving off to Santa Fe with the wind whipping his hair... total Bon Jovi music video!

Re: Sorry, I'm a RENThead :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Did anyone else think Roger looked like Bon Jovi?

YES!!! I thought that half a dozen times!

I understand what you mean about the music -- I missed the live band too.

Re: Sorry, I'm a RENThead :)

[meggitymeg.livejournal.com]

When he was wandering around on those red dirt rock formations out in New Mexico, I turned to my sister and said, "Michael Bolton, much?"

[libel.livejournal.com]

) I fully believe that people should be able to just fuck each other if they want to. There doesn't need to be emotion involved, or commitment -- it can just be about lust, and that's fine.

Truer words were never spoken or typed.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

*grins*

[elizabeth-rice.livejournal.com]

There doesn't need to be emotion involved, or commitment -- it can just be about lust, and that's fine.
But isn't lust an emotion?
Although, you're right about the commitment thing. If two people get together for sex, then one or both of them saying 'I love you' sounds too insincere.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

If it's an established relationship, great, but if it's the first time, it makes me go WTF?

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I know that for me, it goes back to my experience, and when the words seem meaningless under such circumstances. It's nice to know it isn't just me!

[wordplay.livejournal.com]

You know, you SAY this, but part of what is excellent about your writing is that you are always able to make the sex ABOUT the relationship, whatever that may be, rather than Hot Boys Fucking. So as much as might be intending to write about how OK it is for people to just fuck each other (and I don't disagree at all), I find it ironic that you seem to end up writing about how entangled people can be by their desire to fuck each other. Even thinking about your Draco/Neville, you seem to write characters who start out just fucking each other and end up emotionally tangled up in each other, (hell, even with Colby, to a much lesser extentn) which is fine because I think it's very real, but I think it also sort of makes this argument for you, that sex and commitment and love can be tangled up in ways we never really undersand until we're too far in to get ourselves back out.

Oh hell - it's early and I have no idea what I'm saying. Ramble ramble blah blah blah.

I was thinking about you this morning. There's a DC meetup today and I wish you were here. I find myself missing you. ♥

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

*grins* You're thinking of the long stuff I write, maybe? I get what you're saying, though. I do think sex can be very complicated, but it can also be very simple. Of course, that simplicity is facilitated by the two people involved not knowing each other, which isn't necessarily true in most fanfic -- so the RL complications do occur. And that's great, as long as writers take all of that into account.

I guess I just prefer those interactions to be real, you know? Heh, so maybe I'd like a fic where the guy says what he thinks the girl wants to hear and she calls him on it! ;-)

Have fun at your DC meetup!

[anansay.livejournal.com]

As a writer, I've given up trying to get the I love you's in stories, het or other. You're right, it all seems so fake. I like the challenge of getting it in there through actions.

Besides, words are just words. Anybody can say them. But where are the actions to back them up?

[aprilstarchild.livejournal.com]

*nod* *nod* I agree with everything you said here.

Slash, and slash vs. het, is so interesting from a sociology/gender studies standpoint. I saw a serious article in an academic journal about slash once. They had a women's romance novel book club read some original fiction that was slash-ish (it wasn't based in a fandom, but it was romantic/sexual stories about gay men). The women in the group who had no problems with the idea of homosexuality responded that they liked it as much or better than their romance novels. :-)

[ravyn-ashling.livejournal.com]

Ohh, I want to watch the Rent film! I remember in high school, we were supposed to perform several scenes from the play during Family Day. Our teacher had already assigned roles (I was going to play Joanne) and given us the script and all that, but when we were about to begin rehearsals, the principal told us we couldn't push through with the plan because it's gay-themed. She said it might offend the audience or some of that shit..

Er. Sorry 'bout the rant. So much hate for Catholic schools.

Anyway. I have similar reasons for not reading het. And though I've never really tried having sex with people I hardly knew, I mostly understand what you mean. I have had encounters with friends that I didn't have any special feelings for, and that doesn't make me feel bad at all (even if my first sexual encounter - and most of my other experiences - was with another girl). Hm..

[yaycoffee.livejournal.com]

Declarations of love, IMO, are better used in other ways in fic. I'd much rather it be said after one person has done something stupid and they're both laughing about it, than just before they have sex for the first time.

Presactly! This is why more GOOD authors should write het. I've read quite a bit of both, and there is just so much better writing with slash, and I think that's because it tends to be sweet and/or complicated rather than cheesy/trite, while the opposite is true for het. I'm not even talking smut here--I'm just taling about genre generalizations.

Het smut is usually WAY to romance-novel-y (I've never liked romance novels, either), and I can't read it without either laughing or rolling my eyes (or both). I am really trying to think of ANY het fic I've read that incorporated a sex scene in it that I would even recommend. I can only think of one, actually. (Flame and Shadow by Maya, actually).

I just think it's weird that this fandom can't seem to write a good, moving het story very often. Hmmmm.

Well. That probably was just me ranting rather than actually being helpful. Sorry. :-)

[poetheather.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. Sometimes using "I love you" can be very manipulative. I save that for really special moments in stories where it feels like it actually would have happened. Too early and it sounds odd.

Part of it could be skill of the writer. Some people are not sure how to use things like that because they haven't had enough personal experience to extrapolate how it would be best used. Some read very much like fantasies poorly put together. So it could be a skill problem.

[bibliokat.livejournal.com]

Eeeee, Rent! I *loved* it! Sadly, I have never seen the stage version, but I will someday, really! Although it won't be the same as I'm deeply in love with Anthony Rapp's Mark. Jesse Martin was absolutely fantastic. The singing and the dancing and the expressions and wow! He really made that part his own again. Hee, being able to recite dialog and sing the songs was interesting. When I listen to the movie soundtrack cover of "Rent" I fill in Joanne's lines about being a theatre person myself. I did miss the parents' singing voice messages though.

The actors were all wonderful and fabulous and I love them dearly. Including Roger's longer hair. And just because I can, Mark/Roger forever!!! *heads off to see if she has enough money to go see Rent a third time*

[mereol.livejournal.com]

I don't generally read het just because I can get/make it in my everyday life whereas I can't do so for slash. *shrugs*

[ex-crystalle432.livejournal.com]

I fully believe that people should be able to just fuck each other if they want to. There doesn't need to be emotion involved, or commitment -- it can just be about lust, and that's fine.

Amen. I'm so glad somebody besides me is preaching this, because honestly, sex and love are two completely different things. Each can influence the other, but they don't have to.

As far as that happening more in het than slash, I'm going to say what everybody's thinking: it's because there are girls involved. Two guys (well, in well-written slash, anyway) aren't going to profess their undying love for each other while fucking around unless they're already in a relationship or really wanting to start one. Girls are stereotypically more emotional than boys and will not only say 'I love you' while he's pounding into her, she'll believe it when he says it. Also, girls and boys view love differently (and this is my opinion here) in that boys will say it if they feel it that exact second, where 'i love you' means 'i love the way your tight arse/cunt feels around my cock', and the next minute they'll be like 'huh? i said something?' whereas girls will be all 'omgiloveyousomuch' and really mean it and remember it forever.

i feel i should apologize for the graphic words in my previous paragraph as well as my stereotypical views (and the fact that i'm saying they're stereotypical means that i know they don't apply to everybody). also, i lost my caps-lock somewhere in this comment. heh.

anyway, that's my two knuts. ♥

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, yeah, I think it's a "results due to the composition of this particular sample group" thing, because I have read SO MUCH SLASH where characters blurt out "I love you" in the heat of the moment, or just prior to the heat of the moment. SO MUCH. And it irks the ever-loving heck out of me. I've seen in all over the H/D fandom.

I don't think it's a girls versus boys thing, and I sort of resent the implication that girls need an "I love you" to enjoy sex. I think it's a bad writing versus good writing thing. Um. As usual.

*scurries off to look for good het*

[chiromancy.livejournal.com]

Damnit! That was me.

[kirili.livejournal.com]

Am seeing "Rent" on Thursday. I saw the cut for those who don't know the story a while back, but I had to come read. But I'm stupid.

It sounds great. *sways*

Yeah, "I love you"s tend to jarr, but then I've read some where it honestly works. I guess it's more to do with the author than when it is said.