Writing novel-length fanfic

[emmagrant01]

Edit: New community! novel_fanfic

There've been several conversations lately about the way the H/D sub-fandom has changed in recent years. One thing I heard mentioned a few times was that there aren't many epic fics being written any more. A few people even suggested this was a sign of the decline of the fandom, that the change in canon or in the size or average age of writers in the fandom was to blame.

As a writer of novel-length fic in two fandoms, I'm not sure I agree. Recent conversations have led me to believe that part of the problem is that the culture of LJ is neither conducive to nor supportive of the writing of novel-length fic, in any fandom. The temptation to abandon your 60,000-word novel and start posting frequent short fics is great, considering that it gets the writer just as much feedback as that novel she quietly slaved over for six months. And it gets her recced a lot, by the people who do the reccing.

Now, I don't want to give the impression that writing novels is "better" or "more worthy" than writing other kinds of fanfic -- not at all. I simply think it's more difficult to do in an LJ-based fandom. LJ seems geared toward instant gratification, and the writers who post lots of short fic are rewarded more for doing so. Many novel-writers just don't get the same sort of attention, which is unfortunate, IMHO. (Of course, someone else recently noted that you never see shorter fics on people's "Top Ten Fics of All Time" lists, either.)

I have some questions, and I'd love to hear your thoughts.

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?
2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?
3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?
4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

1. written for and planning to finish original novels.
i don't think i ever wanted to write novel-lenght fanfic.
3. i think i agree.
4. i thought this about your fic(s) as well: if i like an author also in novel lenght, i then would be interested in original fiction.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?

Yes. I'm not really sure why. It's harder than writing little fics, or (what I'm best at) arcs of related shorter fics. But some stories just take longer to tell.

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you planning to post it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?

Yes, and it's even H/D. ;) But I've been at it for a horrendously long time and only got 4 chapters so far, because it takes a long time to write things sometimes. But it's up at FictionAlley and my website, and I post it as it goes along.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fic?

I think you're probably right. It's a lot of work to get out a chapter of a WIP that will get a little bit of attention, when jotting down something halfarsed but smutty will get a lot more response. Though it's back to the 'why do you write' thing...if it's all about the feedback, there's basically no payoff to writing a novel. But again, some stories need to be told that way.

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

Well, HP is the first fandom I've been in where it's "acceptable" for more than a year to go by between chapters. I mean, I'm guilty of this myself, but part of that's because I don't worry about it that much. When I was writing my novel length GW fic, I would put out a chapter a week, because there were people waiting for it and I wanted to give it to them.

So I think some of it is the readers, because we're all too lazy to give feedback a lot of the time (I'm guilty of that too), but some of it is that if months go by between chapters, the readers have forgotten what the story was, and they're less likely to make a point to read it.

[kinetikatrue]

1. I am attempting to do so. I haven't before.
2. Yes, as above. Something inbetween. Am considering doing it as NaNoWriMo, so there may be a very, very rough draft going up WIP-style and then a properly polished vrsion all-at-once.
3. I think there's something to that. I know I've certainly felt the draw of writing lots of little things quickly - which is not to say that I actually manage to write lots of little things quickly, but the draw is certainly there.
4. Will get back to you on that one.

[serenitas.livejournal.com]

I do write novel length fanfic, and one I am working on right now is 13 chapters and rising. I post it as I finish each chapter, so it is a WIP.

Your claim of LJ I find is valid. It irritates me to know I can't post a complete chapter on here, but have to break it up into several entries to make it all fit. However, for all the instant gratification that others get with feedback, I do not get much at all.

I would be happy to be in a comm with other H/D novel length fic writers, however would LJ have the room to host such fics in entries, or would we all have to shorten our entries depending on the chapter length?

[kat99999.livejournal.com]

1. Indeed I do! I find that with novel-length fanfiction, I can say more. I mean, obviously I can literally say more, but I find it sometimes easier to express myself if I have a long time with which to do it. A short oneshot fic is something I generally write if I get very suddenly inspired, but I find it a lot more fun to write WIPs- possibly due to the fact that I always get very attached to my characters. I find it easier to write if I know a character for a longer duration of time, and that makes WIPs the easier choice for me.

2. I believe I might be ;) ;) ;) Q&T could never wait to be released all at once, because my writing is so - there is really no pattern to when inspiration strikes for me. I tend to write each chapter in one go, not stopping from start to finish, and only when I get the Idea or Urge to do so. So if I decided to just wait and post the whole thing, you might be waiting forever. *giggle* Plus, feedback is nice. It's nice to know if you're going in the right direction or if readers are getting the correct impressions. Of course, with Q&T it seems like a lot of them aren't ;) But never mind :D

3. I think that in LJ, specifically in the HP fandom, there only seems to be room for a select few WIPs. I mean, when you have the Draco Trilogy, Underwater Light, Love Under Will and perhaps a couple more here and there, nobody seems to feel teh need to commit to other new WIPs, particularly with all the decent one shots around that don't take any commitment. I'm not sure how it works that certain WIPs become popular, but it seems to be quite a select few?

4. I think it's just a case of keeping your eyes open. I tend to be reluctant to read more than a couple WIPs because I get confused and whatnot- but then I hardly read any fic anymore because a lot of seems repetitive to me. Plus, I don't like other peoples characters bleeding into my own writing, which I worry could happen if I expose myself to too much other fic. I just think people need to watch out for new WIPs and not dismiss them right away just by the title or the description or the fact that it's an unknown author - in fact, particularly the last one. That's quite dangerous territory, because when you just read fic by familiar writers, it can stop you being able to appreciate other new awesome work.

Anddd.. breathe. :D

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

so there may be a very, very rough draft going up WIP-style and then a properly polished vrsion all-at-once.

*grins* This has its advantages and disadvantages, I can tell you. I've learned the hard way that people aren't so interested in re-reading your polished and rewritten fic once the final version is posted! ;-)

Will get back to you on that one.

Please do. I'm seriously interested in finding a way to support this type of fiction.

[coconutswirl.livejournal.com]

I'm not a writer, I'm a consumer. Hope that still qualifies me to answer your questions?

What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?

One thing I've noticed is that chapters are posted in near-beta-like condition. Readers get to follow the conception of a novel rather than read a finished productoin.

Pros:
- Experienced writers can gauge how the story works
- You get feedback from a varied bunch of readers, each with his/her own strengths
- Interaction with readers may strengthen the story in unexpected ways.
- For readers such as myself, it provide a fascinating glimpse into how creative minds work and how the *texture* of a fic is woven together.

Cons:
- Public demand might alter your novel-length fic significantly (ships, themes, focus)
- Insecurities might be exposed and exploited by comments
- The format might force the writer to adopt a particular structure so that each chapter ends on a cliffhanger; more straight-forward structure; each posted segment has to make sense as a whole?
- Difficult to change aspects of the novel and rewrite parts (goes for any published WIP)

My main concerns about novel-length fic and LJ are actually that writers are forced to adopt a particular narrative structure *and* that comments can be too influential. A certain popular WIP being posted on LJ has fallen prey to the latter, unfortunately.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

The "why do you write" issue is a strange one, isn't it? I honestly think that any writer who says she's just writing for herself is either lying or delusional. If we didn't want other people to read what we write, we wouldn't post it all over the internet, and we wouldn't squee with delight over every piece of feedback! Of course we care what other people think. The problem, IMO, is when one starts to write only for the feedback. Lately, I've had to work hard to keep my perspective on why I'm here and why I devote so much of my free time to this hobby of mine! ;-)

And yes, it is interesting how many unfinished WIPs there are in this fandom -- and how many of those unfinished stories are still on people's "Top Ten" lists!

[blinded-dream.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?
-I've attempted and I've got a couple great plots. I'm going to write one for NaNoWriMo

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?
-I'm not going to post it until I finish it, that way, in case I decide I hate it, I won't have to worry about breaking the news to any readers I might have.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?
-*cough* Could you like, dumben that down a bit, please? _{What does conducive mean?} *is 13*

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?
-That'd be fun. I'd join. :D

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

Well, I think you have to write for yourself. I write because there's a story in my head that wants to get out, or because I just feel like it, because I like writing. It's fun. So I'd do it if feedback weren't an issue, and have done...I've got notebooks full of fanfic from before I realised that's what it was. ;)

But we still like attention, too. Just because I'd still write without feedback doesn't mean I don't like getting it, or that I don't like the ego boost that comes from somebody liking a story I've written. There's the urge to write, and then there's the urge to share it, and I think there should be some balance between the two. :)

[qurinas.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?
I tend to write novella length fics. 10 chapters or so. I really enjoy the ability to tell an entire story from many angles. Also, character development is very fun for me to explore as an author.

If I write shorter than that, I write 10-15 pages in word. (Until recently, as we have discussed).

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?
Yes. Absolutely not. I never post WIPs. I hate the rpessure of getting the next chapter up for people who want it. I also want to have everything edited and polished before I put it out for general consumption.

Though, sometimes I'll hit specific people up for insight into the whole fic or just parts of it.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?
I would tend to agree. Since the same "blah" number of people leave feedback, the same person isn't going to review your fic 10 times. Know what I mean?

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

I have no clue. Sorry. :)

[142978.livejournal.com]

1. I used to write a lot of novel-length fic. I mean, a lot. I blame the segue between Backstreet Boys fic (ha, I know, no laughing) and HP - BsB fic was always novel-length.

And so I spent a great deal of time plotting expansive HP novels for about the first year and a half I was in the fandom, because it was what I was used to. And then I discovered contrelamontre, which pretty much squashed any desire I had to actually sit down and plan novels. It's so much easier to crank out two pages that has just as much meaning as the 80-page epic, and I think I like writing vignettes and things much more.

2. I have leftover WIPS. Several. And maybe one will ever be finished - but probably not for a long, long time if it ever is.

3. It's believable. Especially with comms like contrelamontre and the drabble comms, where time and length limitations are purposely placed on the fic. At the same time, though, I think that the epics have their place. I'm just as likely to sit down and bookmark the novels, and to like them more in general - there's usually a feeling of being better connected with the characters, and I like knowing that there's another chapter waiting for me.

And sometimes my attention span is just so spastic that I can't focus for more than 1,000 words at a time. Typically the chapters of a novel-length fic are longer than any number of short stories I could read.

(Of course, someone else recently noted that you never see shorter fics on people's "Top Ten Fics of All Time" lists, either.)

...I can totally relate to that. If I made a list of my favorite fics ever, it would be things like iveblossom's Origins and Al's Snitch!. Possibly because I read so many short stories that they tend to blur unless they're really spectacular, or I've bookmarked an archive or personal website and visit it often.

4. I would love to see a comm for novel-length fiction, although I can assure you that I wouldn't be posting in it. Or possibly an archive somewhere of just novel-length stuff. (Does such a thing exist?)

Anyway. Done now. :)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I haven't got any specific sort of comm in mind, but I was thinking of a sort of support group for people who are writing fanfic novels. Sometimes you need to bounce plot ideas off of people, or vent your frustration, or be reminded that it's all worth it. It sounds like you might be thinking about a sort of beta-circle, which could also be good. IME, that oftem works better in mailing list format. I've been a member of a couple of beta circles myself, and they were fantastic for me as a writer.

[142978.livejournal.com]

Err....ivyblossom. Of course.

[laeb.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?

No I don't. Never tried, or never had the right kind of bunny for that, should I specify. My bunnies tend to be short. However I have a WIP on the way and have no clue how long it's going to be by the end.

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?

I would post it as a WIP, I think, but not before at least a large part of the synopsis, plot, etc., has been figured out by me and has been at leats partially written. Just to make sure I have enough to tempt people to read it.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?

Hmm. As I stalk around more than just LJ (one of my favourite place is FictionAlley.org and it's the kingdom of HP WIPs) but I think lj ain't the best plave for someone to post a wip or a complete novel-lenght story. Fuck me why, I have no clue, but I think I prefer to read those from archives (Ink-stained Fingers, Fiction Alley, Skyehawke) or the authors' personnal websites. Easier to keep track of the chapters, you don't have to bump your nose on friends-locked entries or to go through long memories to figure out where the chapters are, etc. Or simply call me lazy.

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

I am merely curious to figure out what you mean by 'supporting' the writers of this kind of fics; I ain't sure I get what you mean. Something like schnoogle.org?

[laeb.livejournal.com]

A certain popular WIP being posted on LJ has fallen prey to the latter, unfortunately.

sorry to intrude, I have no clue which one you are refering to but funnily enough the only HP slash wip on lj that I could ever think of is the shoebox prject thingy. Even if I don't ship Remus/Sirius and have never read it, it's the only one I could ever name and associate with lj. [/rant]

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

Hope that still qualifies me to answer your questions?

Oh, absolutely! :-)

Readers get to follow the conception of a novel rather than read a finished productoin.

And I think that can be an interesting experience all around! There are definitely pros and cons to it, as you suggest. I think that the influence of the readers can be both positive and negative. In my own experience, the involvement of the readers while I was posting LMH definitely led to a much better fic than I could have written alone. I did feel the pressure for certain things to happen, and I resisted, for the most part. And the rewrite was a great experience for me, but I'll never know if people ever went back and re-read it or not, which is a disadvantage of sorts, since the finished version is a better fic.

Do you prefer to read novel-length fic over shorter fics? Do you read a lot of WIPs? I'm going to resist the temptation to ask which popular WIP you're obliquely referring to... ;-)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

*is amazed that you're 13 and reading her LJ*

Well, "not conducive to the production of novel-length fic" basically just means that it's not really a supportive environment for writing long stories, for the reasons I mentioned. It's harder to write novel-length fic in an LJ-based fandom than it is to write short fic. Does that make sense?

[coconutswirl.livejournal.com]

In my own experience, the involvement of the readers while I was posting LMH definitely led to a much better fic than I could have written alone. I did feel the pressure for certain things to happen, and I resisted, for the most part.

But here's the deal: I consider you an experienced writer. You know your craft, you know your style. You have written in various fandoms and LMH wasn't your first popular piece. You are extremely lucky, in that respect.

As I said in my first comment, I'm a consumer and not a writer. However, if I did have the skill and the inclination to write novel length fic, I'd be sorely tempted to "give the punters what they want." I'm easy like that ;) And especially if it were my first major fic. You can so very easily get lost in LJ-land, I think.

My favourite stories in HP are all novellas/novel-length fics with one or two exceptions. SW-TPM faves cover that much more territory: vignettes, short pieces, novels, novels arcs .. I tend to stay away from WIPs unless I'm familiar with the writer and know hat he/she usually pulls through. Scars from XF days and early HP fandom days, I'm afraid.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I'm also a huge fan of Snitch!, despite the fact that it will never be finished. There's just so much fun stuff in what he did post, you know? I feel the same way about Love Under Will and Resolution. If those fics are never finished, it's okay in a way, because I still enjoy them for what they are.

But *I* have to finish my fics in a resaonable amount of time, for my own sanity. I have to give myself deadlines. I only get novels finished when I eat, sleep, and breathe them over a period of six months or so. If I walk away for a month or so, it's likely I won't come back.

Writing short fics and writing novel-length fics are just two different skills, I think. Some people are better at one than the other, and some people prefer one over the other. But I'm concerned that newer writers might not feel like there's a place for their novel-length fic in such an LJ-based fandom. I guess that's what I'm wondering about -- can I do something to help those writers?

[apostropher.livejournal.com]

1. No, but I don't write any fics at all.
2. Nope
3. I agree, actually. I've throught this for a while.
4. A comm would be a good idea. I wouldn't write, but I'd gladly read and support.

[vichan.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?
*grin* You should know. :)
For some reason, I never even considered writing a novel-length until I entered the HP fandom. I get too many ideas entering in my head at once, and they all relate to the same story.

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?
I'm currently posting it as a WIP, because the feedback I get in between chapters helps me make future chapters better.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?
Maybe it's my crazy imagination, but it seems like LJ is full of super-busy people. I notice that I don't seem to get as much feedback for Doppel-turd as I have for other stories, which weren't part of the HP fandom. Reading (and writing!) a novel-length takes time, and I often have to make sure that I have a few days off or a couple hours of down-time to trench through a novel-length fic. (Like I haven't had time to go and read your rewrite of LMH, yet... it's on my list of stuff to read.)
The shorter the story, the more people are going to read it.

That's probably just me, though.

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?
I would DEFINITELY be interested in a novel-length comm - it would help me keep track of fics I've been following, and help me track down new ones. ^_^

[killer-the-cat.livejournal.com]

I think the biggest problem is that some writers who do write novel length fanfics get discouraged by lack of reader response and also the attention span of most readers. Some readers will back a novel length until the end where alot of readers give up on trying to stay on top of all the chapters being put out. Personally I absolutely love novel lengths-I wish there were more (ecspecially if they are all like I left my heart *winks* ). I think readers also need to remember that to keep getting the fics they want, then they have to review to encourage the author. So many of else will read a fic, finish it and say "that was a damn good fic" and not review. And why not? It's not like it takes that long. Sorry I am rambling. *L* Here are my answers:

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not? I have one WIP that will be novel length if I ever finish it. But mostly I write one shots and series fics
2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between? Yes I am currently working on a novel length as a WIP
3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic? I agree. People are more likely in LJ land to read one shots or short fics than to take their time to read novel lengths. It's really quite unfortunate.
4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines? I think a comm is a great idea. Maybe for authors who have completed novel lengths. There is nothing worse than coming across a great novel length that you love, spending all the time reading it, just to find out that the author had abandoned the fic halfway through and 30,000 words later.

[scribbling-elf.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?

Yes, I do. Why? That's simply how my ideas come to me. I like the time that the writer can take to develop the characters, to allow them to grow and change and reaction to a variety of circumstances.

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?

Yes, I'm currently working on a novel-length fic that includes Snape/Hermione and Remus/Hermione. I have many more ideas for novel-length works, using a variety of pairings. I'm posting as a WIP because I love to get feedback on each chapter as I write.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?

I agree. One-shots (esp. PWPs) get the most reviews, recs, and attention--something that can be a frustration to the writer of novels.

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

I don't have any great idea...a community could be good. I would be interested in in any "revitalization" of novel-length pieces that goes on at LJ. :)

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

1. Do you write novel-length fanfic? Why or why not?

Generally, I don't. The first HP fic I ever wrote was a long one-shot... maybe a novella or novelette or some such thing. And I think I could do it then, because nobody knew me at all, and I didn't feel any pressure to produce. Which probably some will say is silly, but I do feel pressure. And I think that is the main reason I don't write it as a rule. I'm not a multi-tasker. I write one thing at a time. And I'm afraid if I was always aiming for something long, people would forget about me. I'd fall completely away from fandom. I wouldn't have anything to offer, because I can't read when I'm writing. One thing at a time, remember? So I wouldn't have recs or anything else. I like being part of the community, and I don't want to lose that. Also, I admit that I like the finality of short fics. Write, post, done. And it's a different kind of writing, which maybe I enjoy more as well. I like working a complex idea into something small. I don't know.

2. Are you currently working on a novel-length fic? If so, are you posting it as a WIP, or will you wait until it's finished to post it -- or something in between?

All that said, I am actually working on a novel-length fic as we speak. I've been posting it as a WIP (only two chapters so far) and I wish I wasn't. But it's too late to back out of that part now. It's slow going, though, because I've been writing short things also, and as I said, I don't multi-task well.

3. What do you think about my claim that the culture of LJ is not conducive to the production of novel-length fanfic?

I'm not sure. I know that I really enjoy them as a reader, and I follow them passionately. Though I will often lose track, and probably that happens to a lot of people, especially if the chapters are posted with very long breaks between. I must say, though, that most of the WIPs I've followed have got a lot of comments with each chapter posted, and the novel-length fics are rec'd and treasured for much longer than short fics. They have a longer life-span. So I'm not sure I agree entirely.

4. Do you have any ideas about how we as a community could better support the writers of novel-length fic? For example, is there any interest in a comm along these lines?

I'd happily participate in a comm for WIPs or novel-length fics.